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106: What Are Your Music Goals Really Worth To You?

In this episode we’ll help you figure out how much your music is really worth to you. 

How much you can and should spend on making and promoting your music, your gear, improving your skills around music making or any external services to help you achieve your goals.

More...

Why we recorded this episode and why we think you should listen:

We’re here to help you help you reach your goals. To help you succeed as artists. We're super passionate about that. That’s our why. And if you're super passionate about your music or your career as an artist, we wholeheartedly believe that your actions, including your spending habits and how you make use of your limited time, need to reflect your goals and priorities.

Here's what we see over and over again...

Many people can’t answer the questions:

  • “What’s your budget?”
  • "How much time and effort are you willing to put into this?"
  • “What are you willing to spend?”
  • "Are you willing to do what it takes and go the extra mile to make something really amazing?"
  • “Here's what it takes, would that be worth it to you?”
  • "How much time have you set aside for this?"
  • "Have you blocked those dates on your calendar?"
  • “Can you find the time and can you find a way to come up with that amount of money?"

Instead they just ask:

  • “What does it cost?”
  • "How long does it take?"
  • “Do I have that kind of time and money right now?” 
They are looking at their current situation as if it couldn't be changed. They don't think about the potential, the return on investment and the value of something, they only see the cost and their currently limited resources, expecting some magic change to happen some day.

All while they get very creative when they need to find time or money for other things they want in their life, although they claim those are less important.

So you need to be very clear about the value and the ROI you’re getting in return for what you’re spending. And you need to be honest with yourself when you're defining what your true priorities are. You probably can't have or do it all.

So what can you do? How do you change your mindset and behaviour if this is what's holding you back? (It's exactly what's holding back most people)

Here's what we're doing in this episode:

We give you questions to ask yourself that will help you define your goals, set priorities, figure out the value of a certain service or product (ROI) and calculate a budget that you can justify spending on your next music project based on all of that.

In fact, you should be happily spending that if you do the exercise correctly. It’s like a mini coaching session that will help you discover your true “why” and show you a path to actually achieve what you claim is important to you.

Book A Free Feedback Call With Benedikt:


This episode was edited by Thomas Krottenthaler.

Benedikt's voice on this episode has been recorded with the Antelope Axino Synergy Core.


Automatic Episode Transcript — Please excuse any errors, not reviewed for accuracy (click for full transcript)

TSRB 106 - Automatic Episode Transcript — Please excuse any errors, not reviewed for accuracy (click for full transcript)

[00:00:00] Benedikt: they get a new phone. They drive an expensive car. They eat out all the time and they go on vacation three times a year, which is totally fine. You can do all of that, but maybe you can not do all of that and, have the funds for your music career and you have to make a decision. Hello and welcome to the self recording ban podcast. I am your host Benedick tine, and I'm here with my friend and cohost Malcolm Owen flood. How are you?

[00:00:38] Malcom: I am great. Still waking up, but I'm here. Ready to talk about recording stuff. 

[00:00:43] Benedikt: Okay. So you've been waking up for what, like two hours now.

[00:00:47] Malcom: Yeah, it takes me awhile. There's also no windows in my studio. So it feels like the middle of the night sometimes. 

[00:00:55] Benedikt: Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, like I did tell you before this episode, but we actually had a power outage [00:01:00] this morning, so, yep. I wasn't so sure if, if, and what will would happen today? Like if I could get anything done or I don't know, but they eventually fixed it. Like the whole town didn't have power. I don't know why, but for an hour there was Campbell's only, and the darkness.

[00:01:15] Malcom: Yeah. Like every time that happens, it actually happens quite often around here. farmland that I live in, but, uh, with every time it happened and I'm like, man, I rely on electricity for everything. Just insane. Like my whole job is based around this one thing, working, 

[00:01:31] Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. So should we just dive in today? Is there anything.

[00:01:37] Malcom: should just into it because I know you got to get out of here and, uh, and this one's a pretty big outline, so we better get it to people's ears ASAP. 

[00:01:47] Benedikt: Yeah. So just some context I gotta get outta here. Not because I don't want to the podcast, the podcast today, but sometimes we do two in a row. And today this is the second one. So I've been here for a while. But we're not going to rush it. This [00:02:00] is a very important episode. We're just going to dive straight into it and not do too much of banter today. So. This episode is all about how like I w I, I have to start differently. I want to, I want to you, it was my idea, basically. And I want you the listener to think about how much your music is worth to you, how important it is to you and whether or not it is, it is truly a priority in your life because you're actually. Need to reflect that. And there is a couple, there are a couple of things that I've been thinking about lately that I want to share on today's episode, it's going to be a little bit different to what we usually do. It's sort of a guided exercise thing. It's more, I'm giving you more like questions, then I'll give you answers. Like you have to ask yourself these questions that I'm going to give you today and just think about the stuff that we talk about. And I think it will give you a lot of clarity and I think it will make it easier for you to make decisions and to know whether or not you should pursue a certain thing and how much [00:03:00] effort, time and money you should put into something and the something being, creating music in this case. Before we dive into that. I want to tell you that we have a community. If you're not already part of that, go to the self recording band.com/community, and it will take you to a Facebook group that you can join for free. What I would love in this community. I mean, it's already pretty active and we have over 500 people in there and it's really great. But what I would love in there is some discussions about what music actually means to each of us, because I had some great conversations in the coaching that I do in the group coaching calls and also in one-on-one coaching calls. And it's always amazing to me to learn. Why people actually create music, what it is that motivates them, that drives them. Because I hear such amazing stories sometimes. Like the background stories are so amazing sometimes it's so, so, so powerful and so strong. And I love to have some conversations about that in the group as well, because it's different for everybody. Some have really tangible goals. Others have like, for us, for others, it's more about self-actualization. And like [00:04:00] sometimes there is a something that happened in their life, some cool stories and background story that led them to. to make music or something that they want to a message that they want to put in their music because of something that happened. And I just love hearing those stories. So long story short, go to the community, and maybe we can start some conversations. Um, maybe I'll I just started a threat for this episode, I think, and then we can have some conversations about this because I really find it's, it's an interesting thing to discuss anyway.

[00:04:27] Malcom: it's a, it's a great question. Why do you make music? Whoa. 

[00:04:31] Benedikt: Yeah, totally. And you can go so deep there. So what, what this episode will be is like, well, that will help you figure out how much your music is really worth to you. As I said, how much you can and should spend on improving your skills around music, making and promoting your music and by spend, I mean, not only money, but time, effort, everything that goes into it, how much you say you should spend on like gear or external services to help you achieve your goals and the reason for why I wanted to make this episode. That we are here. That's our mission. [00:05:00] Like we are here to help you reach your goals, to help you succeed as artists. That's our why, that's why we do this, this, this podcast. And you can only get there. We can only really help you if your actions and your spending and your, the amount of effort you put into something, if that reflects your goals and priorities. So, and I, when I talk to people as a mix engineer, but also as a coach and we talk about their projects and about their goals and about what they want to. They often of course ask about the price for my services, for example, or for the coaching. And when I then ask, well, what is your budget? Like, how much do you want to spend on this? They often can't answer this question. They just, they're just looking for a rate. So if I ask what is your budget, what you're willing to spend, or what would that be worth to you? They can't. Really answer that question because they never thought about that. They just think they need to get it like for the lowest amount of money. And I want to help you answer the question, because I think it's really important before you can go out and hire somebody. [00:06:00] You need to know whether or not that's actually something you really want and what you're willing to do for that, because otherwise you'll, you won't be able to make a great decision there. It, it, it will always feel weird. You will feel like you've spent too much, or you feel like you've missed out, or you need to be clear. How important something is how much you want to spend four on it and whether or not you can find that money or come up with it, even if you don't have it, that doesn't mean you can't afford it. People get very creative when it comes to buying other things in their life that are not as important or like that are maybe more important than just don't know. So, yeah. It's just important that you ask yourself these questions that we're going to talk about.

[00:06:39] Malcom: Yeah. And it's, it's better to ask now than to find out that it's not worth that much to you later. A good example, I think is kind of this podcast. I think everybody under the sun at this point has either said that I'm going to start a podcast or I'm going to start a YouTube channel or a, you know, I'm going to be like a content [00:07:00] marketer on Tik TOK or whatever, you know, everybody's kind of been like, I want one of those guilty lock jobs. And when we started this, there was part of me that was like, you have this, of course, this sounds like it's gonna be fun. But the truth about podcasting is that it, it does take an enormous amount of time. And it actually costs you money to, to put out, especially when you're starting out. And, and there's not really a tangible correlated reward. That that's easy to find. There, there, there absolutely is, especially For us with the community and getting to interact with all of these like unbelievable musicians around the world. It's, it's a no brainer. Benny and I love doing this, but when we started out, I was like, you know, it was one thing to say, we want to do this and, and put in hours, like every week into teaching this stuff, but it's another to actually. Put our money where our mouth is and can stick with it. And I'm really happy that it turned out. We both did want to do this, you know? Um, and, uh, [00:08:00] but like, I think a lot of musicians actually ended up in the same spot where they're like, I want to do this full time. I want to be a musician, but when it actually, you get, you know, push comes to shove, they get there and they're like, well, I don't really want to. Give up on having like all of my Disney, Netflix prime and crave and discovery plus, and I don't know what other TV channels are. I rather, I want to keep those subscriptions more than I want to pay to have whatever service, you know, like maybe, maybe your, your, uh, your recording software costs a month. For example like, oh, like, which one of those do I want more? Am I willing to give that up so I can get this? Not that that's always going to be the situation. Hopefully that's not the situation. You know, most people like to have a movie in their life every once in a while, but, uh, but like at the end of the day, what's going to take priority. And what are you willing to do to make your goals? 

[00:08:56] Benedikt: For sure. It's not a matter of right or wrong. And we all have different priorities [00:09:00] and different things that matter to us in life. We can't just have it all. That's the thing. And most of us, at least don't. So I oftentimes see people who would claim to say that music is their priority and it's, it means everything to them and they want to, they want to be successful at it. And then. But then they decide to mix the record themselves, although they are not good at it because they didn't want to spend money on mixing or they get the cheaper option of something. When they in fact know that the more expensive option will be the better choice, but. I don't want to spend the money, but they still think they can achieve what they want to achieve. And usually this does not work same as is true of a time. Like they say they want to be successful, but they are not willing to put in the time required. And the expectations and what they want to achieve, just don't line up with what they actually do. And I've seen a lot of people tell me, They don't have the money for XYZ, but then they get a new phone. They drive an expensive car. They eat out all the time and they go on vacation three times a year, which is totally fine. You can do all of that, but maybe you [00:10:00] can not do all of that and have the funds for your music career and you have to make a decision. You know that that's the thing, it's all about priorities. So you need to be, I think, whatever you do, I think you need to be clear about what about the value and the return on investment. You're getting in return for what you're spending for, what you're putting in there. And I had to learn that myself, like everybody has, it's not something that is natural to us. I was the person who was asking for price and just wanted to have the cheaper option most of the time. So it's not something that is like natural. So for example, when I started. hiring like coaches for myself. I know, I remember how scary that was because coaching is not cheap. And I have, I have a different business coaches at different phases of my, of me building my studio business and stuff are getting banned and all of that. I needed people to help me with that because I wasn't capable of doing it myself, at least not on the level that I wanted it to be. So. I first reached out to people and I learned how much coaching can be, especially business coaching, because there's an actual ROI attached to that. Like an actual amount of money that [00:11:00] you hope to get back from learning all these things. It was hard for me to, to actually jump into it and do it because it seemed like so much money. But then I was like, okay, if I'm really serious about this, if I want to make the do this full-time if I want to make this my career, if I want to be able to feed my family, doing this. I need to, to invest in myself and invest in that. And if I'm afraid that I can't get my, I don't know, 5,000 euros, 10,000 euros back at the end of a year or two, then how am I going to make a living? Like, if, if, if that's not going to be possible, like if I'm not, if it's not even worth like these five grand or 10 grand or whatever the coaching costs, then how will I ever have a shot at making a living? Because that means I need to earn like many times that, you know, And that was like, what got me thinking. I was like, okay. It costs a lot of money. It sounds like a lot, but the return I'm hoping to get from it. And the whole reason why I do it is going to be much greater. So it's an investment and not just the cost [00:12:00] and the same is true for making music. It's not, it doesn't have to be money. It can be self-actualization. It can be something that is really, really important to you. It might be that you want to leave a legacy for your kids. It might be that. You had the stream since you've been a child, you have written some songs, some ideas that you've always wanted to have on a record. And you want your family and friends to be proud of you, or I don't know, something like that. That means a lot to you. So that is worth something. And you need to define how much that is worth in time and money and effort, you know, and how much you got, how much you would want to put into that to make that happen. And then you need to compare it to other things in your life and find out what is more important to you. what you need to do. So, yeah, so, and w the way we do this now and what now we get into the, how is, we'll give you questions to ask yourself that will help you define your goals, set priorities, figure out the value of a certain service or product, the ROI, the return on investment, and then calculate a budget that you can justify spending on say your next music project based on. [00:13:00] what I think is you should be not only be okay with spending that you should be happily spending that or investing the time. It's not only about money. Like you should be happily putting in whatever's necessary because if you did the exercise correctly, it's like, It's not a cost anymore. It's an investment. It's something you need to do to get what you want to get the result you want. And if it's really worth it to you, you'll be happily doing it. You'll be happily spending it. You'll be happily putting in the time, effort and money that it takes. Because, you know, if you do it, you're going to get what you want. And if you don't do it, you're not getting it. So you need to figure out what is worse, you know? So yeah. It's like a mini coaching session, you know, it's like figuring out this why and showing you a path to actually achieve what you claim is important. That is the purpose of this episode. And I really hope this works out because we've never done something like this on the podcast, but I think it's something important and maybe you can even use it in other areas of your life. It's just something that everybody should do at some point, I think.

[00:13:58] Malcom: All the yeah. And something that you [00:14:00] should absolutely take from this is like, you know, you the lesson, or you're going to go through this process with, with Benny leading us on this journey, it's going to be magical. Uh, but, uh, your, this is a conversation you need to have with the rest of your band as well. You know, because everybody has to be aligned in, in some way, you know, I'm not, you know, aligned is a tricky word because you actually don't have to be going to the same, uh, same place for the same reasons, but you do need to be going into the same place you do both need to get to. The same goal. And you know, one might be motivated by self-actualization. Somebody might just want an ego fix

[00:14:39] Benedikt: Yeah.

[00:14:39] Malcom: and, and somebody might want money that as, as unlikely as that is in the music industry, that can be a motivator and that's just fine, as long as it does motivate you. And it's actually what you want. But, uh, Yeah. you know, over-communicate, as a band, you can't go wrong with doing that. 

[00:14:54] Benedikt: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Right. And it's, it's also, it's going to make it easier to say no to [00:15:00] something as well, because if you find that you actually don't want something, so like as bad, if it's actually not a priority, if it turns out that it's not. To you, whatever, somebody starching for something, then it's easy to just say no and feel good about it. You're not going to feel like you're missing out because you actually really don't need or want this. And then, and you're fine, you know, it's just need to know. 

[00:15:18] So. Cool. All right. So let's dive in. Question. Number one is. Why are you doing this in the first place? What do you want to achieve? And by doing this, this, I mean, w I'm going to talk about making a record now, making recordings, recording yourself. Why are you making music and why are you recording yourself? What do you actually want to do? When you're going to answer to that, the next question would be for me, is that a dream or a goal? There's a difference because a dream is something that it would be very cool if that happened, but it's not actionable. It's like you leave it up to chance and maybe you get there. Maybe you don't, it's not realistic. A goal is something that you can work towards it. Like there's steps involved. You can break it down into like [00:16:00] steps. You can put one foot in front of the other, and if you do it correctly, you'll eventually arrive at your destination. Or you can just have a shot at actually achieving that. A dream is something who knows if that happens, you know, but a goal is something you can really address. You can tackle that you can start moving in the right direction and eventually you'll get there. So is what you want to achieve a dream or is it an actual goal? Do you really want to have that? And is there a realistic way to get there 

[00:16:26] Malcom: Oh, 

[00:16:27] Benedikt: now? 

[00:16:27] Malcom: love that 

[00:16:28] Benedikt: yeah, 

[00:16:29] Malcom: this is going to be a lot of Benny saying things to me being like, I like this question. 

[00:16:34] Benedikt: feel free to chime in and to say something about those things. So why do you want to achieve that? Is there a deeper reason? So the reason for this question is your, your first answer is the first question. Why is probably something like, because music has always been important to me or it's writing music is fun, or I don't know. It's like a. I have a stressful day job and I need like a, some, some [00:17:00] other thing in my life. So this is like my, my way of, I don't know, dealing with whatever. So there's usually some answer for why people make music, but it's usually pretty superficial because there's a deeper level. So why do you want to achieve that? Why are you, why is there a deeper reason than what you answered to question number one? So if you said, if you answer it number one with, I want to make my own record, my first record. Why. Just answer that for yourself. Why do you want to make that record? What's the reason for that? Is there a deeper one now when you have that, the next question would be what would happen if you actually achieved that? How would your life be.

[00:17:37] Malcom: That's a great question, because it actually forces you to think about like, okay, that makes you question why the question you just had to, why you want to achieve it, because if you actually achieve it, like what happens does that provide what you were looking for? It's like, now that almost changes the answer of why do you want to achieve it? Because when you think about what happens, it's like that has to equal the why. And if it doesn't, [00:18:00] there's a disc. 

[00:18:02] questions. great. 

[00:18:05] Benedikt: Thank you. So, yeah, so I want to make a record. Why do you want to make your record? Because I love, I would love, I would like to have an impact on other people. I want other people to be moved by my music. Now, what if that actually happened? If people listened to your music, they like it. They like, how would your life be different? Well, maybe because then people would reach out to me telling me that they love my music and then I would feel great because I know that I would make a difference in the world or like I had changed someone's lives or live, or I don't know. And that would change my life because now I have a purpose and you know, like this sort of thought process. Now, if that happened, what would that be worth to you? Is that whole self-actualization making an impact changing people's lives. Is that, how much is that worth to you? Or if it's more of a tangible goal, like if you answered the first couple of questions with, I want to make music, my job. So I want to [00:19:00] sell a record and then I want to sell X amount of copies or make X amount of money. Like how would your life be different? Well, obviously I could then quit my job or go like part-time or something. You know, this could also be a completely valid answer. 

[00:19:13] Now, what would that be worth to you? In this case? It would be much easier to find an answer to that, because then you'd say, okay, if I quit my job, I lose, I don't know, a thousand bucks a month or 2000 bucks a month, or sometime if I go part-time now, that's what you need to make with music. Now, if you want to replace that, you know, so there's a number. So what would that change in your life be worth to you? Do you believe you can do that? You actually believe that you can. All the things you've just came up with. Can you actually do it? Do you have what it takes to do that? If the answer is no. Why not? What's holding you back. Is, is there what's missing? Is it a fundamental thing that you can never learn? So there's no point in even trying or is it just a small [00:20:00] thing that you need to address a skill? You need to learn a thing you need to buy. Advice you need or solve a specific problem or like, what is it what's holding you back? Why don't you think you can achieve that? Is it a lack of talent or is it something that can easily be solved

[00:20:14] Malcom: Just a hint. It's probably solvable. 

[00:20:16] Benedikt: in most cases? Yes, probably. 

[00:20:19] Malcom: You can do it. 

[00:20:20] Benedikt: Yeah. If it can be solved, how can it be solved? Like what need, what would need to change so that you would actually believe that you could pull off what you said? What have you tried so far that didn't work? Like, have you tried to address whatever's holding you back and what did you do? And that, that just didn't work because it's okay to try something that doesn't work. It's just a problem. If you do the same thing over and over, that just doesn't work. You know, like it's like I read somewhere that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results from. So [00:21:00] that's exactly what, what happens in a lot of our lives sexually. We do one thing, like it's the whole, what got you there? Won't get you there. What got you here? Won't get you there. Thing. You know, we keep doing things in our lives that we always did. And for some reason we expect things to change without us changing our behavior or the things we do.

[00:21:18] Malcom: I have a buddy that said to me, I keep doing the same thing, but nothing changes. 

[00:21:23] Benedikt: Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:25] Malcom: making fun of himself. Um, but it that, you know, this exact realization and he's like, why am I expecting things to grow? If I don't alter my behavior? 

[00:21:34] Benedikt: Exactly. Yeah. So if to bring it back real quick to the surf recording band world say you've, you've been watching YouTube for the past five years and you, yeah, you spend a lot of time improving your skills. You built a home studio, you record your ideas, but for some reason, your production still doesn't don't sound professional. Maybe another five years on [00:22:00] YouTube. Won't get you there. Let you know, get there. Hasn't worked the past five years. You've got it. Certainly got you to some sort of some level you're probably better than you were in the beginning, but something needs to change if you want to take it to the next level, that could be, maybe your room is just so bad or you don't have proper speakers or headphones. So you still don't know what you're actually listening to. It might mean that you need somebody to. To help you not be overwhelmed because there's too much on YouTube and on the internet. And you just don't know what you actually, which, which parts of it. You actually need to solve your problems. Maybe you're overwhelmed by all the different education out there. Maybe it's conflicting information. Maybe you need guidance and the clear plan and not like all the opportunities in the world, maybe it's Israelis, but maybe it's some piece of gear or an instrument that you don't have. Maybe it's like music skills. You need some music theory for what you're trying to do, or I don't know, like, just think about it. So what have you tried? That didn't work and so what, what would you need to change then? [00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] Malcom: Right. 

[00:23:01] Benedikt: What would it cost to really solve the problem once and for all? So if there's one thing that the one thing that you define, that's holding you back, what would it like you, and you said that it can be solved. What would it cost to really solve? Would it be so expensive or is it actually something that is doable? What would you need to do? And what would you, what would it cost if, you know, if there's an answer for that? Because I am guilty of this a lot of times, like sometimes in my life there are things that I just don't do. I just postpone them all the time. I just procrastinate. I just don't do the things. And then when I finally decided I need to fix this, now I need to do it. I figure out that it's way easier, way cheaper and way quicker than I thought it would be. I just about, I only know after I've done it. So there is a couple of things that were like, this happens all every time, a lot of times actually. So, maybe this is the case for you. Maybe you just didn't address the problem because you thought it's crazy expensive and it's almost impossible to achieve, but when you really look at it, it's maybe easy to fix.[00:24:00] 

[00:24:00] Malcom: Yeah. story time, the studio I'm sitting in right now, I put off building it for so long and it was like in relative terms, it costs so little and was such an easy thing to do that changed my life in such a big way, improved my quality of work and like, You know, ability to work, having them workspace, like it was just like the most necessary thing I could've done. And I don't know what I was waiting for. Um, and, and, you know, you're going to find there's a couple of those throughout your life that you're just like, wow, this should have been done years ago. 

[00:24:34] Benedikt: Yeah, man. Totally. Like I I've gone through the same thing just recently, like Thomas and I, um, rearranged the control room in the studio and like I bought some gear, but also, I, I just simple things like for forever, like since, I don't know, since when I've had my monitor and my, my screen too high up between my speakers and I know, and I knew if I would find the way to just put it lower, [00:25:00] it will be. It would be easier on my neck, but it will also be better for the acoustics in the room. I could hide it behind the speakers better. It would be like in front of the speakers right in front of me, it would be just better when it comes to the acoustics, it would be better ergonomically. Like all of that. I knew that if I just put, take, took my amps from the con from the tracking room out into the control room next to where I'm sitting, I would use them more often for ramping because I don't have to go into the tracking room all the time. I knew that if I going to, if I'm. The mass, that was my cabling under the desk. It would be easier for me to rearrange things, change the, you know, signal chains and stuff, because like, I didn't want to go down there because it was such a mess, the cabling and everything. It was just over the years, it just. Yeah, it was overwhelming to even look at, so I didn't do it. I didn't do any of that. And then I decided to finally do it. And then Thomas and I spent like an afternoon together and I did another afternoon on my own, like, and after two afternoons, my screen is now. But it always should have been. My amps are right next to me. The cabling is organized. I [00:26:00] have the patchbays reorganized. I have new gear and my racks, the whole workflow is so much faster. The room acoustics are better and it took me, I don't know, six or seven hours to do that, you know? So it's, it didn't cost any money, just some effort. And for some reason, I thought it's such an impossible task to pull off and I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. And when I thought about it, I was like, that's actually going to be an easy fix. 

[00:26:22] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. Dolby building. great. 

[00:26:25] Benedikt: All right. Now that answer to the question, what would it cost to really solve your problem? Is that less than your answer to the question? What would it be worth to you? So earlier I asked the question, how would your life be different if what you want to achieve would happen? And what would that be worth to you? the cost of solving your problem? Lee is lower than what you said it's worth to you, then why don't you do it? You know, like if you can solve a problem for a hundred bucks and that would get you a result, that's [00:27:00] worth 200 bucks to you, then you should probably do it. If solving the problem costs you 10,000 bucks and the solution is only worth a hundred to you, then you probably shouldn't do it, you know, but you know, you can, you can just figure out whether or not solving this problem is actually.

[00:27:15] Malcom: Yes. Yeah. So actually. I want to point out that it might seem like the point of this episode is to tell you to. Invest your money into making better music, which Yeah. We'd love that, you know, they Benny and I both mix for a lot of our listeners. So sending us your tracks to get professionally mixed. That's great for us. Taking coaching with Benny, that's like a great investment, but we're equally with these questions trying to talk you out of it because. Like you have coaching with Benny isn't worth, like, is it cost more than what it's worth to you then? It's not the right choice to take it. Right. And same with mixing. This has meant to, uh, and like taking it to recording. If, if you just want to be drinking beer with your buddies in the studio and you don't care how it sounds, you just want to do [00:28:00] the thing of recording then. Yeah. Getting a professional mixed, like who cares? It doesn't make sense, I guess. Right? I'm like, this is not meant to convince you to do it. It's meant to convince you to do what you need. 

[00:28:11] Benedikt: Exactly that, exactly that, because I've done 34 calls at this point, I think since I've started the coaching, I've done 34 free coaching sessions with people, and I've only offered, I've only even offered by coaching to like half of them because like the, the rest, I just did free coaching sessions and I didn't even offer my coaching just because. It's it was what you just said. Thanks there. Wouldn't it, it wouldn't be the right decision for them to invest in the coaching because it's not it's. Yeah. It's they don't really want that. It's not worth it to them. And then that's totally fine. So yeah, that's the whole point. I, it's not about like getting more clients and it's, it's also, it doesn't matter if you, if you decide to invest, you don't have to invest it with us. We just try to help you make better records. That's the whole purpose of the show. [00:29:00] And part of that is. That you should not get in your own in your own way. If there's something that holds you back that can easily be solved with time, with money, with whatever, then we want to help you solve that period. And if if it's something that can't be solved because, or that shouldn't be solved because it's not actually a problem that it's not actually a solution that you really want or need in your life, then that's fine too. We just help you make better decisions. Make the decisions easier to feel better about yourself. And maybe make better records for those who are serious about it. So we need to, I felt, I just felt like we needed to do, we needed to do an episode like this at some point, because I've seen so many people get in their own way where they actually would really love to do the thing to do, to make records, to make a professional sounding record. That sounds as good as their favorite record. But their actions just don't reflect that they just don't do the things necessary in order to actually achieve that. So it could be one of two things. It's actually not what they want or [00:30:00] they need to change the behavior. that, yeah, that's, that's why we do that. Actually. We just want to help you get there if you really want to be there now. What are the alternatives to that solution that you came up with? Like, are there more expensive or cheaper solutions? And if there are cheaper ones, how long would each of them take? Which means sometimes there is, there are different ways to solve a problem, and there are more expensive ways and cheaper ways. If time matters to you, look at all these options and figure out like how long would each of them take. So. More YouTube is your solution. Maybe you are very structured, very good at like filtering out what you really need. Maybe you don't go down rabbit holes. Maybe you can limit your consumption to the stuff that you really need. And you're okay with the fact that educating yourself like that just takes longer and that's totally fine. Maybe you don't want guidance and a structure plan, and maybe you want to. you're not able to spend a lot of time each week, maybe it's you're okay. [00:31:00] With the longer process and maybe you're okay with achieving a goal in 10 years and not in two years or something, you know? there's a cheaper solution that might work for you. Just think about that if that's a possibility and then not only education, same with last year. 

[00:31:15] Malcom: Yep. 

[00:31:16] Benedikt: Maybe you're okay with buying a cheaper guitar and then doing a lot of mods to it or changes or setting it up yourself. And it takes longer until it gets the, the instrument that you always wanted, but you will eventually get there. Um, you will have to put in more work. It will take longer, but it might be the right choice. And if you don't want to do any of that, you'd just buy the perfect instrument and hand it over to someone who sets it up for you. And like, it costs more money, but it's going to be quick. And there you go, you have your instrument. Like there's always a DIY way and there's always a guided way. And there is always the. All in one package that you just pay for and you get it way, you know,

[00:31:49] Malcom: Absolutely. 

[00:31:50] Benedikt: and now the other way round is just as interesting to me is what's the cost of not solving the problem. Like what happened. If you don't achieve your goal, what's the cost of [00:32:00] not achieving your goal. That is so it's such an interesting question to ask. And that's the question that scares the shit out of me because like, really, because when I think about my goals in life, when I think about what do I want to achieve and what is that worth to me? Like I can dream up things. I can come up with actual goals and it all feels good. But if I asked the other way around, if I think about what happens, if I don't achieve it, and what's the cost of that, what am I missing out on? That is a scary thought to me, it depends on how big the goal is and how important it is to you. But like looking back and regretting that you didn't even try something or that you didn't pursue something that used to be really important to you. That is scary. I mean, we only have limited time and I mean, we are all different, but to me that's just a scary exercise to do, but also a good one because it really pushes me to go after what I really want because the cost of not solving the problem and not achieving the. Might seem even bigger than like the return you get when you achieve technically same, but it seems different.

[00:32:58] Malcom: I think Benny, you and I are [00:33:00] both, we're both definitely big dreamers. And, and goal setters, I should say more than dreamers even. But, uh, like we're, we're both like, Failure's not an option. 

[00:33:10] Benedikt: Yeah, 

[00:33:11] Malcom: It's like, we're not, we're, we're doing this like that. There is that the what's the cost of not solving it. It's like, that's not even, we're not allowed to think about that because that's not a path we're allowed to take, 

[00:33:21] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

[00:33:23] Malcom: but 

[00:33:23] Benedikt: I mean, 

[00:33:23] Malcom: you that's, on the things we've decided that we're doing, you know, like this is, this is now, we're not the you're meant to do this exercise and then committed. 

[00:33:32] Benedikt: Yes, totally. Totally. And I would say failing is an option to me at least, but like not even trying is not an option. So. 

[00:33:41] Malcom: that's good distinction. 

[00:33:43] Benedikt: Yeah. I mean, for some things, feeding is not an option. Some things I have to achieve no matter what, like I, you know, but in general, it's, I'd rather fail than not try at all. most cases, if I really want something.

[00:33:56] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, uh, important to remember through all this, that [00:34:00] goals, shift and priorities shift and what you want changes. You know, this is why you should do this. Often you should be reflective like this frequently because you might realize that what you're heading towards isn't that what you actually want to achieve anymore. Um, and in the case like that, yeah, you can let it go, but you trying to get there is going to leave you in a better place for that pivot without it, without doubt. 

[00:34:21] Benedikt: Yes, exactly. And I kinda touched on the next question already. Um, and that is what's worse failing or not trying at all. 

[00:34:30] Malcom: Yeah, 

[00:34:31] Benedikt: You know, there's also no right answer here for somethings failing will be worse because it has real consequences and you just cannot fail at something. There are some things you should not fail that probably, but in many cases, maybe not trying at all is worse than trying and. And you have decide for yourself. W what's the case, like, I mean, for example, if you already, if you have a family and you, you know, they, they rely on you and you decide that now you quit everything and you start a band and you tour the country in the van and [00:35:00] stuff like if that doesn't work out, it could have serious consequences. So failing here is probably worse than, than just forgetting about that plan and staying with your family, you know? So in that case might not be worth applying it on the other hand, if you are. And I'm not saying that I'm not gonna use the family example in this case, but if you're miserable in whatever situation you're in right now, and the joining a band and touring could be the solution to that and the con, and you can handle the consequences in case you fail, then by all means. 

[00:35:32] Then do it for a year. And if you fail, who cares, you can always go back to the situation you have. Now, if you already don't like it, I mean, you know what, but you have to lose. So there are cases where not trying is worse and there are cases where failing is worse and then it doesn't have to be this, this dramatic situation. It can be just things like a dream you always had or an actual goal. You always had something you really wanted to achieve. That well you one day when you don't try it, where you, you know, that one day you're going to look back and you're like, I [00:36:00] wonder what happened if I had just tried, like, I regret not doing this. I think this is not what we want in life. Like, this is something we want to absolutely avoid. So if that, if you fear that this would happen, you should probably find a way to try it or be okay with the fact that you don't, but then, and not beat yourself up later, that that decision is up to you.

[00:36:17] Malcom: Yeah. Maybe, maybe this is the time to bring up a couple points I wanted to talk about, um, before we hit the last few points here going back to the cost of it. This is a tricky thing, especially in music, I think, especially with investing into your band and stuff like that. Because if you don't get this right at every step, One step can undo all of the rights you have already did. 

[00:36:45] Benedikt: Yes.

[00:36:45] Malcom: Like a case in point would be like going into the studio with a fantastic engineer. You're investing this duty time and an engineer and a producer or something, and this amazing thing And then deciding you're going to mix it yourself. And the product sounds terrible. Um, and, uh, you know, maybe it doesn't, they, I'm not saying [00:37:00] everybody that makes themselves is going to sound terrible at But you, you cheap one step later on and it undoes all of the good work. Like set you up. for success, you know, uh, another way more possible one. And especially for our audience who are mostly self recording musicians, of course is, you know, skipping on drum editing and just being like, oh, we just won't worry about that. And we'll just record everything onto the drums as they were were, were tracked. And you know, if your drum is great, that might be fine, but if he's not, and that editing really needed to happen. It's like, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the band is. It's just not going to turn out pro right. Because those, those mistakes compound, as we've talked about so you know, you, you could spend money as much as you want on every step after that. But if that first step was missed, it's kind of all for nothing. So there's the cost of failure thing. Deep, deep pocket there.

[00:37:54] Benedikt: Such a

[00:37:54] Malcom: related that which is something we definitely don't want to encourage this. And again, why you should be [00:38:00] doing this exercise early and frequently is that I do see people panic spend. Um, so my other podcast, your band sucks at business. We talk about marketing a lot. And this is where I see people. Panic spent, they, they invest little bits of money through the recording or whatever, um, or sometimes a lot of money, but then they get to this part point where they're like, oh, I either have to like, you know, uh, here's a crude saying that Benny, you can decide it's going to get edited out or not, but I've got to shit or get off the pot. 

[00:38:31] Benedikt: Yeah, I'll totally live that in.

[00:38:33] Malcom: And, uh, and I see some people who told the shit. Decide. I need to, I need to spend outrageous amount of money. I need to go huge on this music video. And it's like, why? Like you don't, you're just like now at this point where you're like, I feel like. Like spend all this money it's going to flop or something. And it's like, well, do you care if it flops? Like you're a hobbyist, you know, what are you doing? Blowing all your savings on [00:39:00] this. And you know, everybody's got a unique thing, but it's just something worth mentioning that you, you shouldn't commit out of panic. 

[00:39:07] Benedikt: Yes, a hundred percent agree.

[00:39:10] Malcom: and that brings up the whole, you know, sunk cost fallacy and stuff like that. But that's a topic for another time. 

[00:39:16] Benedikt: Yeah, for sure. But I, I totally agree. It's important that what you mentioned there, that if you want to, if you're serious about it and if the exercise let you choose something you really want to achieve and to a problem that you really want to solve and something you can actually achieve. And all of those things we talked about, then it's important to do every step of the way correctly and not just parts of it, not just skip parts of it because yeah, it's so important. Glad you brought it up because. Imagine like there's, there can't be an episode without mentioning you strings and drum heads, because imagine if you if, if you're really serious and you invest in good microphones and good like recording gear and then you hire a great mixer and stuff, but you insisted on keeping those crappy old bass strings on. You know, what's the [00:40:00] point of all that you, you might've saved 50 bucks or I don't know, a hundred bucks, but like everything else will not be as great. And, and you know, like that's just not, it just doesn't make sense. You need to, to be serious every step along the way. And the panic spending thing is also real the other way around like you, or, yeah, totally. I've seen both things. I've seen people with actually really great records that where I would be like, okay, this is worth putting more money into and more effort into promoting it because this really has a chance. and then people just don't do anything with it. And it like drives me crazy to see that because I see the potential and I, people just don't do anything with it. But then there's the other way around too, where they've done the bare minimum to get the record done. And it sounds like that quite a bit. And then, and then they realized that it doesn't go anywhere and then they start panning spend and try to promote the shit out of it in, in an effort to, I don't know, solve the problem of it. Not resonating with. And both scenarios are bad. Like there needs to be a balance and yeah, it's important. 

[00:40:59] Malcom: [00:41:00] Yep. 

[00:41:00] Benedikt: It's the only red. Yep. All right, cool. So, um, all right. What's worse failing or not trying at all. So the next point would be after answering all these questions, what are the things in your life that you actually do spend money on or time? It's not only money is time as is often said. It's like, what are the things you put time, effort, and money into in your life? What are those things worth to you? And why? Like, do you go on vacation three times a year? Do you have an expensive car? Do you live in an expensive house? Do you buy a lot of clothing? Whatever it is. I'm not saying that these things are wrong. Not at all. Like we all value different things. And I certainly value things outside of music that I spent money on and time on or whatever. It's just, yeah. Think about it. What do you spend money on and what are those, those things really worth to you and why? Is there anything you actually don't value as much, but you just haven't thought about it. I can definitely say that. It's the case for me at, for example, I'd have a pretty nice car and [00:42:00] I got a good, great deal on it. And it's like a business expense, um, and all that, but I, I'm more and more realized that I actually don't value it as much. And I would be probably just as happy with a car that cost half of it, you know, like it's not crazy expensive, but I could probably get away with spending half the money. And that would be. 

[00:42:19] know, so that's an example for mine. When my next car will, will probably be less expensive because I figured out, I figured out that I don't value cars as much as I thought I would.

[00:42:28] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. Same thing for me. I, I bought my car brand new and it's since paid off and I plan to drive it like literally into the ground because I don't value having a new car. Um, Yeah. As long as this one will continue running and I love it. 

[00:42:42] Benedikt: Yes, totally. And it's okay to, to, to make a mistake or figure out, um, go through the process of figuring that out and then adjust your behavior. It's totally fine. I think sometimes we just don't know. And sometimes what we, well, your changes, but like, just think about it. There's probably something in your life that you spent money on that you don't really value a lot. [00:43:00] TV's another example for me. Uh, some of my friends sometimes make fun of me because I have this old TV there. I mean, it's not really, like, it's not ancient, it's like a TV, but it's 

[00:43:08] like 

[00:43:08] Malcom: like antennas you're aiming around 

[00:43:10] Benedikt: Yeah, no, it's actually a flat screen, but one of the early ones I think is like, I don't know, it's like 15 years old or so, I mean, it's an HD TV, but it's like, oh, it's not a smart TV. And it likes, you know, it's not, I don't, I don't give a shit about it. Like, I don't really care. I can watch TV. I don't watch a lot. Um, I can connect my phone with an app to it so I can watch Netflix and stuff. It's not as cool as like an easiest with a smart TV, but it works. 

[00:43:36] And I don't value TV in that. To, to go out and buy a new TV. I will only buy an, a GV if that one breaks. 

[00:43:43] Malcom: Okay, cool. Okay. Here's a hard question. Can you think, of something? Your actions reflect is important to you, but your, uh, your values don't align with it. Like, is there something that you find yourself putting time, effort, or money into that you shouldn't be[00:44:00] recurrently. 

[00:44:01] Benedikt: is one. 

[00:44:01] Malcom: Okay. 

[00:44:02] Benedikt: I said, yeah, the car has one for sure. I will change. I've realized that and I will change that in the future, I think. Yeah. So, yeah, that probably could find more for sure. I'm a sucker for like gadgets that I don't really need. So like I I'm debating buying an apple watch now that I have an iPhone, like I had, I didn't have an iPhone for the longest time, my life, because that was one thing that I thought I didn't want, but actually now I wanted it because of the camera and content creation and all of that. Not because if the phone, but now I have an iPhone for the first time in my life, not an Android phone. I have an 

[00:44:32] iPhone. 

[00:44:32] Malcom: held it a long time. 

[00:44:34] Benedikt: Yeah, and I, and now I'm thinking I should, I get an apple watch and I don't have a reason for why I would need that. Like, there's not a single reason for me to need an apple watch, but I try to come up with a reason just to, I can buy one, you know, I try to justify buying one. So I don't know if I'm going to end up buying one, but I'm just, I just love for whatever reason. I love these gadgets. I love these things that I absolutely don't need. And don't really. But chances are that I'm going to buy one. Maybe not like, like there [00:45:00] these things and I have to make these tough decisions. So that's some other things probably more important than buying another cool gadget that I just like for 

[00:45:09] Malcom: really hard to maintain like a relaxed enough stance on this. Still be like, okay, with hobbies, like it's okay that this doesn't serve an important purpose of my life. And it was just kind of something I did for fun. Um, but like, you know, everything in moderation, of course. 

[00:45:25] Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Another thing may be, and then I move on, but another example where I'm definitely spending too much time, for example, is I'm having, again, generally, I'm having a hard time focusing on one thing in business and life in general and hobbies. I have too many hobbies. I have too many business pursuits probably and things I do, I just do too much. Part of my personality. So that's one thing, but for example, I spent too much time in the garden. I love gardening. I love planning my own. Like growing my own food, growing my own vegetables and stuff, and I really value the, the healthy food and the results I get from it. And also like being outside. [00:46:00] But I don't think. I should spend as much time on that as I do, because it's really, it's an outrageous amount of time in the summer. Like I put so much effort and work into this garden where if I'm truly honest, I could, I could just go to an organic farmer somewhere by the same quality food for like, you know, it would be quick. It would be easy, would be the same quality I could still spend time outside. I could play with my kids more. I could do more sports, do less work in the garden. I don't actually know why I do this for some reason. I think I do have it, have to do it all myself. So. I should definitely do less of that. I know I want to do some of it because it's satisfying, but the amount of work I spent, like growing our food in the garden is like crazy. And I shouldn't do that, so

[00:46:42] Malcom: yeah. Um, yeah, it's funny. I was going to say, like, for me, maybe it's like, I spend too much time doing my running. Like I could get the same amount of exercise on a much shorter time, but I, you know, I like to hang out, get to the top of the hill and chill for a long time or just stop somewhere and just kinda, you know, it's like, uh, [00:47:00] it's really enjoyable. And now hilariously, the things we're mentioning are like, are good for us, you know? Even it's good for our mental health, you know, there's all of these benefits. So it's not that it's bad, but we could be more efficient, but I'm sure there's people listening that have things that are not healthy, you know, gardening and running are really best case scenario. It's I gotta say, um, you know, for me, I play video games and there's been times where I've been like, okay, the amount of time I'm spending on video games, it does not reflect my goals at all 

[00:47:29] Benedikt: Absolutely. 

[00:47:30] a common one. Yeah. That's a common one. Social media is the next one. That's 

[00:47:33] probably true for most people. I spend too much time on Instagram. I limited, I probably spend way less time than most people and I limit myself a lot, but I still think I spent too much time on there. 

[00:47:44] Malcom: I definitely spend too much time on Facebook. forums, the forums get me. 

[00:47:48] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we all do these things. So, um, to bring it back to the self recording band world, again, upset, like I I've just joined a new band. And so I'm in a similar situation then, like, as most of our [00:48:00] listeners. And now if this year I will, I spent just as much time in the garden. As I used to the last couple of years, I won't get much done for my man. Probably like, there's no way I can, I can go running, doing the garden thing, uh, playing with my kids, do all these things. And then also being in a band. So I have to ask myself, do I want the band thing or not? And if I don't, if I do, I need to cut back on other things, there's no way around that. So. Th that's why, why these things are important and it involves money. It involves time. All of that. We just can't do it all. And if I claim that I want to be successful with all that, I want to reach people with this new band or whatever success means to us. But if I, if I say that this is important to me and that we want to achieve something there, I probably need to stop doing as much in the garden 

[00:48:46] Malcom: right. 

[00:48:47] Benedikt: All right. So, um,

[00:48:48] Malcom: 2 of the year. Benny stuffs gardening. 

[00:48:51] Benedikt: Yeah, I'm not really sure. And I, if it turns out that gardening is so healthy for my mental health and like for me, everything that maybe I'll quit the band [00:49:00] and do more gardening, you know, that's also totally fine. That's just, I just say you need to do those exercises. Okay. So now. Yeah. That's actually essentially the last question. Yeah. How does music and achieving your goals as an artist compare to all of those other things? Uh, when it comes to importance and value, like, what are the, like, what do you spend money on? What are those things worth to you and why is there anything you actually don't value as much? And how does that compare to music and achieving your goals as an artist? This is basically what we've been just talking about. So. If you're in a band and you really want this to be, I don't know, a part-time job, or you want to be a professional musician, you really are ambitious and you're serious about it and it can be done. It's actually achievable and all of that. you'll have to look at all the other things to do in your life and you have to make a decision. There's no way around that.

[00:49:51] Malcom: yeah, I used to live with both my brothers. I've got a twin brother and an older brother and we were roommates for years and I had my band and the [00:50:00] studio and like just was doing the music thing, doing the music thing. I would leave really early and I wouldn't come back until really late. And it was all of the time. And my brothers who both had normal jobs were like, man, if you did this much time on anything else, you'd be rich 

[00:50:18] Benedikt: Yeah. 

[00:50:19] Malcom: And I was like, I know, 

[00:50:20] Benedikt: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:50:22] Malcom: I know instead I'm pretty broke right now. That was like, you know, but like, that's exactly what I wanted to be doing was like, I'm just going to do whatever it takes to get this band off the ground. You know and I mean making a record for zero money and investing money into whatever we need to get it done. Yeah. It aligned. Right? So in that case, it made sense, but I had to be aware of that, you know? Cause like, otherwise they could have said that to me and I would have been like, yeah, I'm going to go get a job, like screw this, you know? And that's the realization we want people to have is like, where do you [00:51:00] fall in that? If you were to take all of the time, you're dedicated time, effort and money, as we said that you're dedicated into this and put it into something else, would your life be better? Or. 

[00:51:09] Benedikt: Yup. Yup. 

[00:51:10] Malcom: It's a big question. 

[00:51:11] Benedikt: The question. Yeah. And even if it's not a thing where you want to make money, um, or you want to make it part-time full-time professional, whatever. Just think about like, just throwing that's a number. So you just think about. I, if you really don't want to regret not trying later. And if it's, if it really means something to you, If you want to leave a legacy for your kids, if you want to create music that somebody cares about or if you just want to get your message out into the world and that's something you really, really want to do for some reason that I don't know about. Let's say, doing that would take you an investment of, I just say like $10,000, like you would need to buy gear, you would need to build a room or whatever you would need to buy a course or get coaching or I don´t know. Let's just say it costs you $10,000. Like in 50 years or so, if you look back, would having achieved that be [00:52:00] worth a $10,000 to you or would having not achieved, like would you, would you happily spend those $10,000 looking back, if you could only like turn back time and do it again, like, would you be happily spent that in 50 years or would you be like, oh, I'm actually glad I didn't spend that amount of money. Both could be the case, but that is, that is the whole point here, because sometimes we don't realize how important something really is to us. Um, until we make it be doing exercise.

[00:52:25] Malcom: A hundred percent. All right. That was a deep episode. 

[00:52:29] Benedikt: I hope so. I hope it was helpful. I know it's a weird kind of episode, but I think it's really important for us creatives because it's so, it's so different from just doing a standard career thing or like pursuing something more straightforward. You know, the sole creative thing is so abstract in a way. And so it's a lot of hoping and dreaming and the. So I hope this makes it a little more actionable and I hope it, it makes it easier for you to actually define what you're comfortable spending or what are you [00:53:00] comfortable, like the amount of time you can comfortably spend on something also. And I really hope it helps you make good decisions. And like maybe the decision, as we said is you're okay with it staying the way it is. And it's totally fine. And you're actually happy, which is. Going to save yourself a lot of stressful things that actually you don't need to do.

[00:53:22] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, again, over communicate with, uh, with your band, but also with yourself, like you just have to be reflective like this And introspective and, and ask hard questions and question your behavior.

[00:53:37] Benedikt: And once again, go to the self recording band.com/community, because I'd love to have a conversation about this. So once this episode is out, I'm going to make a threat. And if you're open to sharing, um, your deeper, why and your reasons for making music, I'd love to read those stories. And I will definitely read them. I will reply, and I will try to start a conversation because I've heard such interesting stories from people in. I love to hear about those.[00:54:00] Let's try to do that. And, um, I can't wait to hear your reasons for making music and there is going to be people I think, in the community who are like, it's just a hobby and it's important to me, but I don't really want to do any more than I do. And there are going to be other people who are really ambitious. And I just want to learn about both. I want to know why that is. And what's the, what's the story behind you? Making music. It's always interesting and fascinating. 

[00:54:25] Malcom: Absolutely. All right.

[00:54:28] Benedikt: Thank you for listening to this episode. Talk to you next week.

[00:54:31] Malcom: Thank you. Bye.

[00:54:32] Benedikt: Bye.


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