107: How Long Does It Take To Produce A Song?

107: How Long Does It Take To Produce A Song?

Let’s assume you’ve already written a song and you can play it. Alone or as a band. 

How long does it typically take from there until you have a finished, mastered product that you can release?


  1.  The truth for most people/bands is, that the song is probably still not finished and ready to record. Even if they think it is 😉
  2. In this episode we give you the full process and timeline. Without skipping anything. The only thing we assume here is that you have the right gear for the project, know how to operate it and that what you have is in good shape.

    This is meant to help you actually get things done (in case you're taking too long) or to help you realize how much time you actually need to put in if you want it to be great (in case you're rushing it).

We will tell you how long we think each step could or should take you. We’ll also compare doing it all yourself vs outsourcing the mixing and/or mastering.

Let's dive in!

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This episode was edited by Thomas Krottenthaler.

Benedikt's voice on this episode has been recorded with the Antelope Axino Synergy Core.

Automatic Episode Transcript — Please excuse any errors, not reviewed for accuracy (click for full transcript)

TSRB 107- Automatic Episode Transcript — Please excuse any errors, not reviewed for accuracy

[00:00:00] Malcom: And one of the reasons people were still hiring me, despite me having a podcast, teaching them how to do it themselves is because they could not get it done in time. They were just like, this is taking forever. We have no idea. we need a captain for this ship and they would just keep hiring me to produce a record. 

[00:00:28] Benedikt: Hello and welcome to the self recording band podcast. I'm your host than at a time. And I'm here with my friend and cohost Malcolm Owen flood. How are you? Malcolm? 

[00:00:36] Malcom: Hello? I'm great. Benny, how are you? 

[00:00:39] Benedikt: Great. Thank you. Happy birthday to you. Happy belated birthday. Um, it's probably a week, week and a half after your birthday, but I feel I still want it to do that on the episode.

[00:00:48] Malcom: Yeah, well, at the time of recording, it is only two days after my birthday. I am officially a 31. year old man, man, boy. 

[00:00:55] Benedikt: God, your, I always forget. You're younger than me. It's like, it's really weird. I always [00:01:00] think I must be younger, but it's not the case. You've done so much in your life. Yeah. Like with all the things you do and the TV and movie and traveling and whatnot, I always feel like you were years ahead.

[00:01:12] Malcom: I'm packing stuff in as fast as I can. It's funny. 

[00:01:18] Benedikt: So you had a great birthday, right? 

[00:01:19] Malcom: yeah. Yeah, it was awesome. I'm not, I was working on a show that I'm not really allowed to talk about yet, but, um, yeah, I'm not even gonna say what we were doing, but it was exciting and a little dangerous and uh, and pretty, yeah, it was a very west coast experience. I had a great time and uh, then, you know, got home yesterday, spent some time with family and friends and yeah. Things are great. I'm a little sleepy today. If you're watching the live stream, I can tell that I look sleepy. I know. 

[00:01:48] Benedikt: I don't think we have a live stream today, but if you watch it on 

[00:01:51] YouTube later, 

[00:01:52] Malcom: Right? Yeah. That's what I meant to 

[00:01:54] Benedikt: okay. Yeah. 

[00:01:55] Malcom: the video of me looking to gets posted, 

[00:01:57] Benedikt: Yep. There there's going to be a YouTube video. [00:02:00] Absolutely. 

[00:02:00] Malcom: Yeah, thank you to everybody in the community that gave me a little birthday, shout out on the Facebook community and pulled the appreciate that you guys are all awesome guys and girls all super awesome. 

[00:02:10] Benedikt: it truly are, by the way, if you're not in there, go to the surf recording band.com/community and join us. And, uh, yeah, I think it was to Austen who thought about you and posted the, the, 

[00:02:20] Malcom: Yep. 

[00:02:21] Benedikt: the Congress post to

[00:02:22] Malcom: He's a thoughtful man. Torsten he tried to get a coordinated birthday song for you on our last group chat. Um, but we couldn't get everybody speaking at the same time, so it didn't, it didn't come together, but it's the thought that counts. 

[00:02:36] Benedikt: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So, all right. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know that w we talk about the process of making a record a little bit today. Like that's not the title of the episode, but like, it's about the process. So, um, I have something for you, something free. If you go to the self recording band.com/ten step guide, it's a PDF sort of like a mini ebook. I've talked about it in the past. It's still relevant. I updated [00:03:00] every now and again. So it's always kind of up-to-date and it's like, It's timeless also, really, because it's not about gear. It's about the process of making a record, walks you through the 10 steps. I, I sort of boiled it down to 10 steps that you need to go through when you make a record, start to finish and things you need to watch out for and take care of and like all these things. So if you go to the self-regarding band.com/ten step guide, you can download that PDF. And, um, I think this will be a good starting point at least. And it's probably even more than that's a good download that, let me know if that's helpful and, um, yeah, that's what I have for you today. I want to say 

[00:03:39] Malcom: Yeah, Nope. Go check that out, grab that stuff. It's great. Um, Benny, you did mention that. you had something exciting to say though, before this 

[00:03:46] Benedikt: Yeah, I was kind of rambling on this, this PDF thing now, because I actually, I was thinking about another thing that gets me so excited that I can't wait to talk about it. 

[00:03:56] Malcom: for the 

[00:03:56] Benedikt: kind of hard when my brain, when I think about my brain, can't do two [00:04:00] things at the same time. And when I think about something, I just can't talk anymore. That's just a, yeah, it's always the same thing for me. So, um, yeah, I discovered like if you've been listening for awhile, people that, you know, that I am a sucker for great tools and productivity things and like little software helpers and stuff like that. And I got a lot of them and some of them are probably not really necessary and some are really cool. Others, not so much, but like, yeah, I tested all sorts of things, but I found something this week that is probably the most exciting one, at least in a while. If not like of all times, it's like the, one of the best ones that I've found so far, it's like really amazing. And I don't even know if that's really relevant for our listeners, but I just want to tell you my.

[00:04:39] Malcom: So the kind of stuff we get excited about. Yeah. 

[00:04:41] Benedikt: Yeah. So there used to be, I dunno, this is probably only relevant for people who use a calendar sort of religiously. Like I do, like I do everything out of my calendar. Like I schedule everything. I have so many projects at the same time with different deadlines, different delivery dates for stuff. And so I have to have a calendar I [00:05:00] have to be organized and I would recommend to do like, doing that to some extent, even if you are a quote unquote, just a band or work on a band project, just because of like, you know, having a timeline when, when things are actually finished, when to expect mixes, when to have demos, radio or whatever, like there's always these sorts of steps and things to schedule. So I recommend using a calendar and, but sometimes life gets in the way. And what happens in my case is my calendar is full. It's like beautifully laid out and perfectly planned. And I'm super excited like startup every week. And then. Probably by Monday noon or something. The whole plan sort of goes out the window because something happens. That's sort of, um, the changes, everything. And then I have to go in and reschedule and like nothing works as planned anymore. It's kind of frustrating. So I found a tool that takes that away from me. I don't have to do that anymore because there is a tool that's called motion. It's a tool where you just put in, it's a calendar tool that syncs with your Google calendar, whatever you use and you just add tasks or projects. [00:06:00] There's the distinction between a task, which is a singular, like single thing, actionable thing, and a project which consists of multiple tasks. You can add a task or project into motion and you tell it like, this is the project or the task. This is how long it will take. You just estimate how long it will take. And then you say, this is the deadline. You say it's a hard deadline or a soft deadline, or it's like, Or it can be done ASAP. Like whenever, you know, like there's these different parameters, you just type that in, you add the task, you do that for every single project you have, and then the tool would automatically calculate. And you put in your work hours, of course. So you can block out time that you don't want to work on anything. You know, like all these things you do that once it took me about, it's really straightforward to set it up. It took me about 15 minutes to set that up. And then I just added my current projects to it. And then it calculates and populates a schedule for you that makes sure that you meet every deadline and that you stay within your work hours. You keep your breaks or whatever you have your lunch break or whatever it's important to you. And the cool thing is when it notice, [00:07:00] it knows which thing, which tasks are sort of mandatory and have to be done at this time, because otherwise you won't get it done by the deadline. And it knows which of the tasks are sort of flexible still. And it lets you, it gives you a scheduling link such as Calendly or something. You know, you have this built-in scheduler there, so people can book meetings with you and stuff and. The those flexible things stay available. The other ones are busy and blocked and whenever things changed. So when, for example, I don't know, like you need to do something unexpected thing and you can't get something done. You click I'll do it later, or I can't do it, or you just deleted. And then it recalculates the whole schedule and everything's different, but you're still on time. And it does that automatically. And every time you add a new project, you don't have to know when you want to do that. It just does that for you. And now I have to just look at my calendar. I know exactly what I need to do today. And if something is quicker than except expected, or it takes longer than expected, the schedule automatically changes. And I have, I don't have to do anything. And I, I like the couple of days into [00:08:00] this, I'm already faster finishing stuff before I thought I could finish them. It's less stressful. So for me, the way I work, it works perfectly like it's. I can't really explain it properly. I think you have to look at what it does, but it's like a, it's like an intelligent calendar where you're just putting your task and it does all the rest for you. It's like having an assistant who like manages your schedule and it does everything automatically, which is 

[00:08:20] Malcom: Very cool. I'm, I'm interested. I'm I'm looking it up right now. It's used motion.com, right? Is that the all right. Yeah. I found the one. Very cool. But listeners, I promise this Kind of, ties into our episode 

[00:08:31] Benedikt: yeah. 

[00:08:32] Malcom: kind of in a vague little way, sorta 

[00:08:37] Benedikt: Sort of, 

[00:08:37] yeah, 

[00:08:38] Malcom: a point, um, because it is, we're talking about getting stuff done in timely manners, more or less, and how long that can take, but, but we'll get back to that and I want to know more about this. Does it like implement with your phone well, and your computer, like, is it all integrates into your kind of. digital 

[00:08:56] Benedikt: Yes, and it does it so well, that's the, what I love about it. Like they [00:09:00] set it up so well, like the onboarding process itself is so straightforward, so easy, and it's like, there's a web app. There's a browser extension, a widget that sort of lifts at the side of my screen. When I hover to the right with my mouse, it like pops up and it says like add a new task. And you just, while you're working on something, you can just add a new task without having to open some app or some website. You can quickly see your calendar. You can quickly populate a message. When like somebody wants to a meeting with you or a call, you can just create message for that person. It sends an email to them saying, Hey, these are my available times this week. Just pick one. Or here's the link to schedule one. It does that automatically. You don't have to think about it because it knows when you are available. And, um, It, you always have that, whatever you're working on, it's always there. You just have to hover over it with the mouse and then you can add a task or remove something. So it's very works very well. There's a phone app that works well. And, um, yeah, I don't want to, like, I'm not advertising for this thing and I don't have an affiliate link yet. I might have one soon if I keep using it, [00:10:00] but for now it's like, I just, I'm just talking about it because I found it really exciting. And it's just, it's finally something that really is it's, it's really something I needed. Sometimes it's just things I want, but this is really something I need it because it got so frustrating. And you know, my wife is working in the company as well, and she does a lot of scheduling for me, but also for sure, for her, it was always frustrating when things are constantly changing and you always have to reschedule everything. And this thing's just been amazing so far and it's crazy how well it prioritizes things also like, yeah, it's just, you have to try it. It's like really, really cool. They give you a free trial and um, yeah, it integrates well with everything I do.

[00:10:37] Malcom: Cool. All right. I'm, I'm such a paper day planner guy that, I mean, I use my calendar, but I'm curious if, if I can make this work, I would love to make it work. 

[00:10:48] Benedikt: Yeah. The only requirement is you have to stick to the calendar then like, if you, if you don't do that, like, um, then it doesn't work. Of course you have to do what the calendar tells you. And then, but if th that's just, that's [00:11:00] exactly what I want. Like, I want to be like the dentist who comes through the, the practice, like in the morning and then, okay. Which patient is in which room and what do I have to do at which time? And then, um, you know, like that's what I want. Like, I don't want to have to think about it.

[00:11:13] Malcom: It's smarter. That is, you're taking a lot of decisions off your plate, which is totally smart. Okay. I'm going to commit to trying it. for five days. Cause that's how long the free trial is. 

[00:11:22] Benedikt: Yes exactly. It took me half a day to be convinced that that might just be me anyway. So enough about that, but it sort of ties in to today's episode. That's what Malcolm said. And he told you, right, because we're talking about how long it actually takes or should take or can take to produce a song, start to finish. And I said these three different things now, because there is no standard timeframe that like every project takes this long, but there is maybe, I'd say, yeah, well, we'll talk about that. So it, it, I think there's, it shouldn't take longer than a certain amount of time and. Shouldn't be F or it's probably not [00:12:00] faster than a certain amount of time as well. And we're going to talk about that. Maybe your experiences, a little different there than mine, and everybody's different of course, but I think there's a timeframe that we can go. We can give you guys and we can talk from experience and we just want to make sure you're not cutting corners and rushing it, but also we want to prevent you from like, making everything like take forever. And I've seen both. And I wanted to do this episode because I'm talking to so many people on coaching calls and with my mixing clients and everything. And there are these people who completely underestimate how long it actually takes to do something like that properly. And then there are people who overcomplicated so much or who just give themselves so much time that. Chances are they're never going to finish it at all. So I had just last week I had a quote request for mixing where, um, the person said, I think it was 11 songs. And I asked for like, when, when are the tracks ready? And by when do you want them back and stuff? And he was like, okay, so far it takes me about three months to finish a song. So that would be [00:13:00] probably two years. And then that the 11 songs would be done. And I'm like, okay. But like, you want to schedule a mix in two years now for this record of what you want to, like, this is crazy long. Like you can do that faster, you know, and chances are, you're never going to finish the record if you give yourself two years to do that.

[00:13:15] Malcom: Yeah. You'll, you'll lose interest. You'll um, your taste and music will change. You'll get over the songs, not be inspired anymore. Cause they won't mean anything to the person you are at that time. You know, a lot changes in a couple of years. Um, to me that's, that's totally crazy for sure. But I I've been there. 

[00:13:31] I'm finishing an album right now that we're like really close to 12 months on. 

[00:13:35] Benedikt: Yeah. I mean, me too, me too. I'm finishing where I'm starting to mix a record now that they booked in November, 2020. So yeah. 

[00:13:43] Malcom: Wow. All right. 

[00:13:44] Benedikt: 14 months in or so it took them for, I mean, COVID and stuff. It's like a different thing and I could totally get that, but again, it shouldn't take you too long, but you shouldn't also not rush it. And it's not about like expectations and you, we just want to help you [00:14:00] and give you sort of from our experience, some I don't know what to call it. Like some rule of thumb maybe, or like, just, yeah, just talk about how long it took us in the past to produce something properly when 

[00:14:14] things 

[00:14:14] Malcom: some perspective and you know, it's a really good idea to look at professionals in your field and mimic them and try and gain perspective, um, from how they do things. And Benny and I used to both professionally produce bands. Now we're both just mixing and mastering. But by doing that, um, we, we have an idea of like how long that process generally would take and. I was still producing bands for a long time while we were doing this podcast, which is all about teaching bands to record themselves. And one of the reasons people were still hiring me, despite me having a podcast, teaching them how to do it themselves is because they could not get it done in time. They were just like, this is taking forever. We have no idea. Like we need a captain for this ship and they would just keep hiring me [00:15:00] to produce a record. And, um, I think this podcast has succeeded in some ways in helping people get better at that. But this, yeah, this, we should totally be addressing this and giving you an idea of what that timeframe can look like. Cause you could probably do it. I think in most cases, most bands are taking too long, but at some steps they're going way too quick or we're not doing them at all. 

[00:15:22] Benedikt: Yeah, it could be a combination. Actually. I've seen where people, where it takes people forever to, to finish it. But then at some point when, when they finally get to record it and the session is, is sort of everything's recorded, they have it in a session from that moment on, they think now it's going to be very quick to just finish this. So it's a combination of both. It takes forever from the idea of making a record until it's actually recorded. And then from the raw recording to the finished thing, they kind of underestimate how long it takes. That's often the case like this combination of the two and at my expense,

[00:15:55] Malcom: Yeah, totally. Um, all right. So I think our plan here is just to go through kind of each [00:16:00] step of the process and discuss how, how that could look at from a timeline stance.

[00:16:04] Benedikt: Yeah, excluding the writing and arranging part, because we've talked about the whole process of making a record and a whole other episode, um, where we talk about like start to finish what is involved and everything. Like for this episode, let's assume you've already written a song and you can play it as a band. You've rehearsed it. So you, you think you're ready to record? Now, you go, you'd be ready to set up your recording, rigging kit record, do it. And then it's and everything that follows after that, until it's done, like, we'd talk about that and how long each step can take should take whatever. So I want to start with, by saying that when you, when you've written a song and you can play it, you've rehearsed, it, chances are, it's probably not completely finished and ready to record yet, depending on. Your demoing pro uh, process or whether or not you did proper pre-pro, uh, chances are you can play it and you feel like it's ready, but when you record it for the first time, if you skip pre-pro, then you [00:17:00] will probably discover things that need to be addressed. Like could be performance issues, could be technical. Things could be, um, arrangement issues. So this is the first thing that I want to talk about. A lot of times when people think they're ready, they're actually not. And they underestimate that there's this gap between, okay, we have a song and now we're ready to actually enter the studio. And I think when, when I produced, when I still, when I was still producing a lot of time, I had to guide people, sort of, I helped them prepare for the studio. So from the time from the day they booked the session until they actually got into the studio, we were helping them prepare properly, prepare the instruments, prepare themselves, prepare the songs. So there's these steps in between that a lot of people don't really think about. And in your opinion, What does that look like? Or in your experience? Is that, is that a thing, like how long does that typically take a band or 

[00:17:52] can take a band? 

[00:17:53] Malcom: Yeah. So there's, it's going to look different. I mean, I think especially these first steps, it's going to look different from a [00:18:00] band, a band situation. Um, And I think Benny and I will both be pulling from our experiences of being hired as a producer. But as the bands and musicians listening to this podcast, you should just kind of be assuming that whenever we say producer or us, it's you it's, whoever's in charge of the recording in the band. Um, so you've got to kind of take that and make it fit your world. But, uh, first thing I would ask for is demos. Yeah. Send me the music. I want to hear the songs you want to record. And sometimes, uh, that would mean that they have to record them for the first time. So that is obviously a step that can be skipped and kind of what you're alluding to is that, oh, we've written the song we're ready to record. It's like, no, you haven't, you haven't made the demo yet. Um, so the producer needs to get the demo. And again, if that's you in the band? you are the producer. You need to listen to your song, you need to not play it and just listen to it. Um, so having a file that is the song recorded. Is is important. That could be a cell phone recording it, you know, in the middle of the jam space [00:19:00] at the bare minimum, or that could be a full multi-track thing to a click track. Um overdubbed and everything, which I think it should be, but, but, uh, you know, anything is better than nothing. Um, so yeah, you have to get that done. So, but as far as timing goes with how long it takes to do that, it does depend on the process you choose to use for recording it. I am a big fan of trying to do like live demos to a click track for pre-pro. If, if you're tight enough, cause it's it's, you can change things on the fly then, you know, and just be like, oh, let's try that again with a different ramp, you know, you kind of get to make pre-pro decisions live as a band. But if you can't, then you can just do multi-track. That's awesome. And there's advantages to that as well because the tracks you're cutting then stand a chance of being used in the final thing. Um, if you're being really diligent about it, but takes longer. So 

[00:19:52] Benedikt: Yup. 

[00:19:53] Malcom: I would say depending on the setup, you're probably gonna, like, if you're doing overdub, pre-pro, [00:20:00] you're gonna need a day per song, I think, to rough it out. 

[00:20:04] Benedikt: Yup. 

[00:20:04] Malcom: you think, Benny? 

[00:20:05] Benedikt: Yup. I agree because it's not that it doesn't have to be the best performance ever or the best tones. It's more about. Yeah. Learning about how well you can play it, whether or not the tempo works. Um, if the arrangement is really there, maybe you have some ideas you still want to try and but you, I, I agree that it shouldn't take you longer than a day to record that properly. I'd say though that the whole process typically takes a little longer because I would do typically I would do multiple rounds of like pre-pro I would do one give it to just a few select people, or maybe even like non-musicians to, to just to get some feedback, some outside perspective. Obviously you don't want to send it to too many people if it's not finished. Some feedback doesn't hurt. Usually I would let it sit there for, I dunno, two or three days to just get some objectivity back. Maybe then I would do another round implement what you've learned or, um, what needs to be changed until you feel like, okay, this, this is what we're going to [00:21:00] record. Like, this is pretty much it. And so I'd say yeah, a day to record everything, maybe do another round or two. So if you're D this all depends obviously on your, the rest of your life and whether or not you have a full-time job and stuff like that. But. It could be done within a week or two. I think the whole pre-pro process, depending on how long you give yourself, but like two or three days to record different versions of pre-pro some feedback in between. That's what I'd say. And you can even do more than one song on that one day. Like if, once you have your setup, you know, what to, what, how you want to record and all that I can think, I think you could do any P a day, even like just, just getting some raw tracks and, um, doing pre-pro if you don't, because I think the point of pre-pro is also do not go into too much detail. So you shouldn't do, you shouldn't obsess too much over, like which Mike per year, which, you know, all these, these details and settings, you should yeah. Just worry about the song and about the performances, but they don't have to be perfect as well. And, um, so yeah. Um, anything from between a day and like two weeks or so, [00:22:00] and then you can probably get pre-pro down for a single or an even If you're very organized and you don't have a job and you know, or whatever, then you could do pre-pro for a whole record in a week or two. Like that's that depends on your life situation.

[00:22:13] Malcom: It does. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, just main, main goals is coming out of it with you know, improving the song you want, you want to come out of it and be like, all right, well, we we listened to it and decided we need to up the tempo here on the course or whatever it is, you know, that's the whole point. Um, and then ideally if you come out of it with some scratch tracks to start recording too, that is really awesome as well. 

[00:22:37] Benedikt: Yes, totally. 

[00:22:38] Malcom: You're making the skeleton of the session, essentially. 

[00:22:41] Benedikt: Yeah. Now, if things could take a little bit longer, if you find that you need to practice stuff, or you need to rewrite parts that just don't work or something that could happen, like it could be that it felt right. And while you were rehearsing, but now that you hear it recorded, you actually, there might be some drum fills that are not really [00:23:00] playable or there might be a weird, um, yeah. Something that, that just is very hard and maybe you need to simplify things or maybe you just need to practice until you can really nail it. Or maybe there's a cool vocal thing that you absolutely want to do, but you need some training to actually pull that off, you know, and then, uh, it could, you could, you should probably give yourself a little more time to, to, to practice, uh, because that that's usually worth it or you need to simplify things, so that could make it take longer. so that is the part where I'd say like, don't cut any corners because I see a lot of people just skip these things. And I think this is the part of making a record where you should give yourself some time. It shouldn't take forever, but you should really make sure that when you actually hit record, When you go into the actual recording session, none of those things should be holding you back. Like you shouldn't think about: Can I actually sing this? Can I actually play this? Do we have the required gear? Is our gear in good shape? Um, which room are we going to record in? And you know, all these things. Do we need to treat the room? Do we want to record to click or not? Like which tempo? [00:24:00] All these questions. They should have been, you should, they should have been taken care of during pre-pro. And then when you hit, when you go to the actual recording session, it's going to be a lot quicker.

[00:24:09] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. It should be much quicker. Um, the more you think about all of those things in the pre-pro the quicker. and better, it will go. It's a really a balancing act because you don't want to be obsessing and like spending hours trying to get the right tone. But if the tone is just like oddly wrong, you should think about why and what you need to do to solve that and be like, okay, like we need a different guitar. My I've got a big hollow body and it's just not doing the trick for this. Or, you know, I don't know why we thought fretless bass was a good idea, but it's not, we got to change it. You know? Like you should be addressing things and like, okay, the drummer flubbed, the big fail going into the first course. Was it just a mistake if it's just like, you know, he can play it and it's in time enough. Yeah. sure. Move on. But if it's like candy, play it. Can you, can he actually play it? Are we going to spend hours trying to fix that in the studio and waste a bunch of money or whatever our situation is? You [00:25:00] totally want to address it. 

[00:25:02] Benedikt: yes. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Just agree. Totally. So, yeah, that's it. And then, uh, I think the whole point is that when you are actually recording and this is even more important, when you do everything yourself, you have to be able to focus on the performance on capturing the moment, the performance and the, the vibe, the energy, and all of that, more than anything. So if you need to do these things anyways, that Malcolm just mentioned, like, you need to figure these things out anyway, and you should do it before the recording session, because if you don't do it, you'll have to do it in the recording session. And that's where you should actually focus on how, how does it feel like you shouldn't be, it shouldn't be about trying to capture a take without mistakes. It should be about capturing the best take, like the one that feels best and you should be able to focus on that. And the technical stuff should be out of the way. And all of those things, you know, Okay, so now let's assume you've done that properly. You've you've you, you took some time and you spent, I don't know, a week or two really refining [00:26:00] your, your songs and doing pre-pro. Maybe you, you, gave yourself some time to practice and all that, and now you're actually ready to record. So I think if you've done properly, if you've done your job, I think a song like including the there's, you know, you got to know that there's the setup time that it takes just to get everything right. Like new drum heads, new strings, all of that. You can do that in advance, of course, but that just takes time. And then you probably want to, even with the best of like, even if you're really prepared, you probably want to, um, compare different mic positions and be more detailed when it comes to actually to the actual tones and stuff. So there's some setup and time involved. So I think in my experience, and I'm curious to hear, what would you say about that Malcolm, but in my experience, At least like half a day or so would be just set up sometimes. Like it would be half a day could be just drum set up. And the other half of the day could be guitars and vocals and all that. So when I did, uh, when I did full records with bands or a piece or [00:27:00] so I would usually schedule a day just to prepare everything. And then the next day we would start fresh and we would only worry about the recording. So we wouldn't do it the same day. So I would suggest scheduling one day where it's all about making sure everything works, making sure what you thought is a good idea in pre-pro actually turns out to be a good idea, make sure that they thought the Mike positioning the mic choice, the, um, placement of everything is working. Make sure you have fresh strings and drum heads and tuning and all of that set that all up and then leave for the day and come back fresh and only worry about the performance. So that's what I would always do. So would typically take me days to set up. Um, it would take me, I'd say a day to a day and a half or so per song to do the actual tracking on average. Like I usually, I would schedule a day and a half per song. So for a 10 song record, I might schedule 15 days of like, just recording time, for example, like, 

[00:27:54] Malcom: here's something to clarify, you edit after recording generally more, more, [00:28:00] often than not. Right. It's kind of like, a record and then edit step for you, 

[00:28:04] Benedikt: except for drum editing. So that I was just talking about like the, the net, like tracking time, it would be for 10 songs would be like two weeks, 14 days, 15 days, something like that typically. But within like the total time of, it would be maybe 20 days because after. The first five days or so we would do drums and then there would be like, okay, when I didn't, I have to think about, uh, about it in the, from the perspective of recording bands. So for me, before I had Thomas, who would help me with editing before I had assistants helping me with it, with editing, while we're doing the session, I had to do all the drums. Then we had a break of a couple of days where I would edit the drums and then we would, uh, we would move on with the rest and I would add it, the guitars, the bass and the vocals after the session is done. So it could be like five days of drums for our record. Three days of editing those drums, then we continue tracking and it will be another 10 days of tracking all [00:29:00] the rest. And then I would edit all the rest. So that was the process later when I had helped with that, or you can do that as well. If you're outsourcing, which is really great. If you find someone remotely who you can send your drum tracks to, you can track one song, immediately send it out, work on the net on the next song while the other person edits at the same time. And I, I, I got to a point where when we're done, when we were done drum tracking, we had like, when we were done recording 10 songs, eight of those were already edited and we could immediately move on. So that's the ideal situation and it gets the best part is when you have someone in a different time zone, because then you can record during the day. And then at night when you're done, the other person on the other side of the world would edit. And the next day your stuff is finished, you know, that's perfect. Yep. 

[00:29:43] Malcom: big fan of that happening. Um, and, and Yeah. I don't understand why this is going on a tangent here, but, uh, it's like self recording bands. Think they're not allowed to hire editors because they're not professional engineers or producers. And it's like, no, anybody can hire a drum editor [00:30:00] or an audio editor, um, or a vocal tune tuning or whatever. Anybody is allowed to access those sorts of services. It's not a special club. 

[00:30:08] Benedikt: yeah. And I would actually recommend, uh, that a lot. And I, that I would really until, unless you really like that, or you have the time and you don't also know what you're doing, like it's so worth outsourcing that just because of like, if you're doing everything yourself for the objectivity alone and for the perspective and all that, you don't want to spend three days listening to every single drum hit over and over while you're recording the record. It's a much better idea to just give that to someone you get back perfect tracks and you can keep recording to those. It's much more fun. It's such a smooth process. And it's like, I don't think you, as the producer should do that. I mean, you were, you were wearing enough hats. You are the producer, the engineer, the musician, all at the same time, you shouldn't be the editor and the editing engineer as well, I think, but I mean, you could, but it's just me. And I think it's not too expensive. Usually it costs money, but it's like affordable in the grand [00:31:00] scheme of things I think. And um, so at least the drums, maybe you can take the time and edit everything else once you've captured everything. But like during making the record, I would absolutely give the drums to somebody also. You're never going to be as fast as them. That's the same thing. Like if you do it yourself, it could mean that you need a two week break or so until you can continue, because you're just not as fast. If you give it to someone who does that all day, you can get your drum tracks back within three days or so if the person.

[00:31:25] Malcom: Absolutely. Yeah. If you value your time at all, it's more affordable to hire somebody without a doubt. Um, and if you don't know what you're doing, you could really do damage to your songs as well. Um, be that by doing a bad job at that, it even, it just sounds bad. Or by over editing and you've kind of lost perspective on the field. I find people when they're starting out with editing, don't really know how far to push it and they, they just get nervous and go too far. Um, and, and you don't want that either, right? 

[00:31:54] Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Yeah. So what do you agree with the, um, let's say [00:32:00] full day set up maybe another day. It was just as a buffer because you need to change things in between, or you might need different setups of different things, but like one or two days just for set up and stuff and then one and a half days or so per song, will you agree with that? Or would you, would you give it more time, less time 

[00:32:15] Malcom: I think it kind of lands up at the same time. I just think of it differently. Generally. I was editing as I was working, um, rather than like batching it. So it's like, we kind of, weren't done guitars for that song until it was edited as well. Like we're just kind of both beside each other until it's like, Hey, this song is done. Boom. Um, not always, but that's usually how I work because I was usually doing well, you should, because we were working on a single only, so it made sense just to be like, let's just finish it. Um, but yeah, on a more recent album we did do just like a lot of tracking and less editing and then editing after. And Yeah. it pretty much lined up to that. My quoting was always assumed two songs a day. That's including editing which [00:33:00] I think more or less lines up. So that'd be like, yeah, 20 days for a 10 song album, 

[00:33:06] Benedikt: Yup. Yup. Sort of the same, same 

[00:33:09] Malcom: Yeah, recording and editing. So that's, it's close. Sometimes it would be less. Sometimes it could be more, it could be a lot more, but no, well, not that much more, but 

[00:33:18] Benedikt: I mean, that is, that's an interesting. Um, because I think Maura is always possible and it depends on your budget, but it doesn't mean it always gets better if you take more time. So yeah, you've heard, you've probably heard stories of, and a lot of people do that. If they have the budget of people like spending months at the studio to record a record and you can do that and you can be great with the right team. And if everybody's is focused and you try a lot of things and like, but some, I think for most African bands, it's not really beneficial to do that. Just because you have a life outside of music and the longer it takes, the more likely you are to just lose interest or things, get stressful and you make a mistakes. You'd start rushing things, although you actually taking more time, but you start [00:34:00] rushing things because you don't want to spend as much time on music anymore at some point, you know? So I think batching stuff, maybe taking a week off or two from your job, if you can, and batch stuff, and like, just focus on that one thing and get it done is better than taking a very long time to do it. If you have the luxury of like three months off and like all the time to experiment and you really want to do that, then by all means do it. But I wouldn't compare myself to like these bands where they, who would book a big studio for half a year to make a record. I wouldn't do that as a sort of recording band. I think, I think that's not a good idea. So, and then also when it comes to set up I've heard, I know people do it that way and I took longer than a day sometimes if I need, it depends on the record, but I know that there are people who would take like a week or two just to set up drums. Yeah, I mean, again, if you have the time and the mental bandwidth and all, and to do that, and you want to try every single drum, head on the planet and compare them all, and you want to try all the different snare drums and rent a bunch of things and like all the, you can all, [00:35:00] you can do that, but I, I doubt that it, that it's actually worth it in the end. So if you do your homework in some research before, and you pick the right gear for what you're going for, and I think you can be much quicker than that. And I think in most cases you should, but that's just my opinion.

[00:35:15] Malcom: I told the agree. And I actually want to say that even if you can't afford it, you probably shouldn't because there's a hidden little skill factor involved in being one of those people that can spend that much time. And it comes with outrageous amounts of experience. I would say it's took me like five years to figure out what a good bottom snare sounds like, because they sound like garbage on their own, no matter what. And now I'm like, I know what I'm looking for. It still sounds like garbage on its own, but I hear it. And I'm like, that's, that's pretty sweet. That's what I want. And, uh, and like, so if you're just getting into this and you are swapping out drum heads and stuff, they're just going to sound different. You won't know which one's going to like how it's going to play with other instruments that are yet to come and stuff like that. You, you just don't know what you're really looking for because especially drums [00:36:00] the it's the sum of all the parts, not the individual things that really make it come together. Um, so yeah, I think time is the enemy you want to be shooting from the hip. 

[00:36:10] Benedikt: Yes, exactly. That's such a good point. I remember, especially with snare drums, I really remember when I was starting out, I watched a video where someone was like, okay, we've tried this snare, or if you've used the snare on the record, but for this particular song, we used a different one because the other one didn't work as well. And I remember myself, like, I don't remember watching this video. How did you know that the snare didn't work for that sound? Like why did it not work? It sounds like a standard. Like, I didn't, I really didn't understand why a different scenario would be the better choice. I heard that they sounded different, but I couldn't tell you why one would be better than the other. And so that's probably the situation that a lot of our listeners are in. So if you, even, if you have the luxury of trying 10 different snare drums, how will you know which one to go with? You know, it's like just more options, more confusion. And, um, yeah, I totally agree with, okay. 

[00:36:57] Malcom: uh, I did want to give one story [00:37:00] and it was making a band Rascal's album. We were shooting note, guitar, tones, guitars, really just playing a part with the guitar and different guitars and listening. And I was like, oh, that one sounds meatier. And he's Eric rats. Our producer looked at me and he was like, I'm listening to the snare. I was like, what? He was like, how does it sound? Like, how does the snare sound against the guitars? Like, that's what I'm listening for. And I was like, whoa, like I'm, I'm just obsessing over my guitar tone. And he's like, no, no, like how does it fit with the song already? It's like, okay. totally. different perspective. 

[00:37:32] Benedikt: Yes. 

[00:37:33] Malcom: moment. 

[00:37:34] Benedikt: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And, uh, and then you can do a lot of that experimenting during pre-pro during practice. Like you can do that all year. You can do that. You should actually experiment and try things, but I th I don't think the actual recording session is the time to do that. So, and over time, you'll get more experienced with that and you, your taste develops and all that, and that's totally fine. And I'm going to get in a good thing, but in that one week, or those two weeks, that you have to actually record your record, you should focus on getting that done. 

[00:37:59] Malcom: Totally. [00:38:00] Yeah. So, uh, just to circle back and really cement that we both landed at like 1.5 to two days per song. Think about that, like, and, and apply it to what you've done so far with your band to how, how long has it been taking you? How long have you been working on your latest recording song? Um, is it way past two days? We need to assess why you need to assess why? Um, there's a podcast. I can't hear you talking back at me, but, uh, like so many people just get so caught up and they're like, oh, the album's almost finished. It's been like 12 months. And it's like, why? Like just get that music out there and learn. And you're gonna come back with more songs. So don't take too long. Yeah. this point, drive that home. 

[00:38:42] Benedikt: Yeah. And just to clarify, are we talking about recording only, like, or in your like recording and editing? Um, sort of, but depending on whether or not you're good at, with editing, this could take longer just because of the editing. Like you, if you don't know what you're doing, if you're not experienced editing alone can add another two [00:39:00] weeks to that. Or so, you know, like again, think about maybe hiring someone to do that or getting better at it, like practicing that because I don't know. How long does it take you typically to edit a song? Can you give us a psych, a raw estimate?

[00:39:14] Malcom: Yeah. So I think that that big album I was talking about where we did more of that in the, after tracking, um, like I said, normally I do it kind of at the same time, but this time we kind of did a lot of tracking other than drums, like you said, drums got edited before we started stacking stuff. Uh, and then I went home and did editing and it was probably like close to a day a song. So, so we did, I think we did 10 days of recording. Maybe, maybe it was like 11 or 12. And then I probably had 10 days of editing. And this was a very heavy. Editing, uh, album, like we wanted things insanely tight for like guitars cutting off and stuff like that. And so one of the heavier editing jobs I've had for sure, but, uh, yeah, I mean, that's the lens lenses at 20 days for a full album. That [00:40:00] seems about right. 

[00:40:01] Benedikt: Yup. Yup, totally. Okay. So then I'd say there's one more thing I want to add to the whole recording process, which is there's a setup cost. I'm always. So if you don't batch things, if you only have the evenings and the weekends, and you can take time off to do it all at once, it will take you longer because you have to get back to the sessions every single time. You have to remember where you left off and what you wanted to do. And you know, it makes things a little difficult. So whenever possible, I would recommend like really batching a project like that. That's one thing to keep in mind and we had a coaching call with. Academy students and coaching students where we discuss that because people find it difficult to get back into a session or two, um, like we were talking about what you can do to remember where exactly you left off and what was on your mind and why you made certain decisions. Because when you come back, three days later, perspective is different. Everything. It just takes some time until you're back into the project, really. Uh, so that again adds additional time, I [00:41:00] think. And um, so whenever possible, I would say take some time off and batch batch things. You don't have to do it. Not everybody in the band has to do it at the same time. Like you could be that usually there's one person responsible for the sort of the engineering or the producer part. You have some different roles in the band. You know, that person obviously needs to be there, but not everybody else needs to be there all the time. So maybe three, four or five days are enough for you. And maybe you can do that. 

[00:41:25] Malcom: Right. Yeah. Now to drive the same point home from a different angle, I'd say it's also more expensive because your strings arguing, they get burnt out while you take a week off and noodle with your guitar, or even just letting your strings sit their strings age just by sitting there everyone. So new strings have to get put on. we say that all the time, but even if you didn't play it, if they're just sitting there, they're old. Um, and, uh, it's not as bad as playing them, but it still does. They're not as Spanky. So you now you're buying more strings for the same song, which is ridiculous. You should only need one set of strings for a song, [00:42:00] hopefully. And, uh, and drum skins, definitely drum skins, drummers, like to hit their drums when they're not recording. So, uh, and for, I think self recording bands, you might be doing this at your jam space. So you might be mixing and recording with rehearsals and stuff like that. So you put on new skins for your first song. Yeah, like cool drum track down, and then you go back to rehearsing, preparing for a show, you get interrupted, and now you want to go record a song too, but the drum heads are all dead. Like that's a huge amount of money. You just kind of have to reinvest again and again. So batching saves you money, 

[00:42:30] Benedikt: Definitely. Definitely. Okay, cool. Now, after recording and editing comes mixing, and this is pretty, this gets pretty interesting now I think because we're both mixing, um, as a, uh, for a living and like, I, I only do, I don't produce don't do anything else, like I coach and do this year, but other than that, I just makes so natural. It's gonna, it's probably going to be surprising to you when I tell you that I mix very, very, very fast [00:43:00] now, and this is not the same. Like you shouldn't expect the same when you mix your own songs. So, you might, might be surprised to hear that I can make, I don't know, sometimes I can mix three or four songs a day and that's not because I'm cutting corners or because you know, I don't do, I don't do it properly. That's because I've invested years of refining my process, the systems. I have people who work with me. I have, um, there's so much that that other people do for me before I touched the session. Like Thomas, for example, he, perhaps the sessions, he sets everything up. I have my templates. I have a dialed in room. I've been working out of this room for almost 10 years now. I know exactly what it sounds like I'm in there every day, I can make decisions very, very fast. So That's also the reason why my mixes don't get cheaper, although I take less time to finish them. It's just because it took me so much time to get to that point. So yeah, nobody's paying for the three hours that are actually mixed or the five hours that it actually makes. Or sometimes it's 15 hours. It's never the same, you know, but nobody actually pays for that, but they pay for all the, the experience and [00:44:00] everything I had to put in there to get to that point. And it makes for a better end product because I spend less time on it. Don't overthink stuff more intuitively. And so you pay for the value, but you can't compare that with someone who's just starting out. That's not possible at the beginning, if you're just starting out and it only takes you two or three hours or four hours to mix a song, you're probably cutting corners. That's just 

[00:44:19] Malcom: It's probably awful. 

[00:44:20] Benedikt: it's probably awful. Yeah. And sometimes even like, even I it's, sometimes it takes me two days, so I'm not saying every song just takes that like that. And it's like, um, and it take, I, I, I just don't stop until it's there. No matter if I'm like, sometimes I'm w I'm done in three or four hours and sometimes I need two or three days and that's totally fine. I won't stop until I feel like it's ready. And for when you're just starting out or you mix your own band, it's probably going to be a lot longer than just a couple of hours. So I'd say there's also this probably I'd say maybe at least a day, maybe a day, like for the first sort of the first version of the mix, I think a day or two would be a good [00:45:00] starting point, probably two. 

[00:45:01] Um, 

[00:45:02] Malcom: Yeah, 

[00:45:03] Benedikt: and after that, like I don't. Yeah. What do you say about that? I think probably two days would be a good starting point for me 

[00:45:09] for one 

[00:45:09] Malcom: looking to professionals again, and we both have a lot of peers that do this. You know, some of my closest friends are other mixed engineers and audio engineers. Um, and the average seems to be for a professional about a day, a song.

[00:45:22] Benedikt: Yeah. 

[00:45:23] Malcom: That's what I'd find Benny, you have gotten on the, I think you're now in the Uber fast, um, league of mixers, 

[00:45:30] Benedikt: Yeah, but I, I say, yeah, yeah, it's cool. But I say, I can sometimes makes three or four days a song, but the reality is, and Thomas knows this. If he's listening to this episode and he's, he's been sitting next to me, the reality, a lot of times when I mix the reality is like one or two days is the one or two songs a day is the norm. And on some projects I'm able to do more. And those are only projects also where it's like a full record with the same sort of setup that they use to track. Uh, it's supposed to sound very similar. You know, there's like the same drum tones, sort of the same [00:46:00] guitar tone. So I can use a lot of what I did on the first, the first mix will take longer. The first it might be a day or two, but then the other songs might be way quicker than that because I I've, I've dialed in the tones already. And I don't, I it's mostly automation and special effects and things like that. Those are the records that guilt get, get done really, really quickly. If it's a record where everything is, I understand it's completely different then it's, this is not the case. So the norm is still like one or two songs a day, but sometimes I can make three or four a day. So 

[00:46:27] Malcom: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm with you on that. Um, I'm, I'm averaging a song a day. It's gotten a little quicker just recently. Cause I hired an assistant as well, showed it to Stacy. And that's speeding up the workflow quite a bit. So by the time I finished the first song, the second songs prepped and ready for me to just to jump into it right away. And that, you know, that cuts down a couple of hours for sure. And, and, again, like you said, when it is consecutive songs for the same album, it goes much, much quicker usually. But you know, a day a song is what you can expect a professional to take. So if you [00:47:00] are doing it yourself, which is honestly something we don't suggest Yeah. I mean, I remember at the end of the day, Benny and I, we, we, we send it when we're happy with it. So hopefully that takes four hours or whatever. That's awesome. If it gets there in four hours, it's there in four hours. It doesn't really matter how long it takes. It doesn't matter that it gets there. I've definitely spent like five days on a mix earlier in my career without a doubt to get it there. And that's just how long it took me. And, you know, we got it there and it was happy and they're happy. So that's awesome. But like that's a long time and it, it's very hard to keep perspective over that amount of time. The longer you go, the worse your ears start being in the day, but also just like in in perspective to what actually matters anymore. So I think this is another spot where. Self recording bands are either spending, like you said, Benny way too little time thinking like this, [00:48:00] probably, you know, we just slap on a smiley face, DQ on the master bus, call it done, uh, or, or way too long. And they're just tweaking forever and not really able to figure out why it sounds bad. And there's going in circles and, you know, just manually, manually mangling both of those situations are common. So I think knowing that if you're offering that a professional level, which is what you would want, it should be about a day should be, if it's not, that might be a sign that you need outsources. 

[00:48:31] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah. I think I agree. And, um, I think there's also this sort of thing that doesn't happen. A professional scenario where. You when you're a band and one person, the band mixes it, everybody in the band will have an opinion and it will, it will, for that reason alone, it will take probably forever because you're not alone finishing it. Everybody will want to hear the, where, where the mix is at. And then you send a rough mix or you send some version of like work in progress and then you'll get [00:49:00] 10 different opinions and things. And then you start over or like, it's just a more tedious process overall. So I would, first thing is I would not send it or I would not even show it to the rest of the band. If you're the person mixing it, I would not show it to the rest of the band until you are really happy with it. It doesn't need to be like a hundred percent, but like, you need to feel very confident about the mix and they will going to tear it apart anyways. So, you know, like make them do it, like finish it to a point where you feel your, you really like it and then show it to them. Because if you send them three different versions of work in progress, you're going to each time you're going to get like 10 different notes and opinions and stuff. So that's the first thing. And then. At the end to have that like one or two days or maybe three days or whatever it takes, it still would be okay. I think to take two to three days for a song. But at the end of that, there's going to be revisions. So you need to factor that in. So it's not just mixing and then you're done, but you should let it sit there for a while. You should come back to it later [00:50:00] yourself and you should, at some point, show it to your band mates. Of course, and you should get some feedback. And, and then there's probably some things you want to tweak. You probably want to take it to other systems to the car or whatever, like do some tests. And then, there will be a revision process. And this is very, I don't know, this is dangerous because it's important that everybody, of course. Did you get that outside feedback? Because you're not as experienced, you're not as objective because it's your songs, you produce them. So it's going to be difficult to mix those. So the outside perspective is important. Everybody in the band has a different, like, of course an opinion, and it's all everybody needs to be heard and I get that, but there's also this point where it's very dangerous, that that revisions can just take forever and they can be so frustrating that at some point you just feel like you, you abandoned the project, but you still don't feel like it's finished and it can be frustrating. And I think you had finished strong. I think you should. Yeah. It's hard to give advice there. It just shouldn't overdo it with the, with the revisions. It's[00:51:00] 

[00:51:00] Malcom: Yeah, I, I think you pointed out a really good thing and it is that by being in the band, your band mates are going to, I don't know how to word this. It's like, respect you less. 

[00:51:10] Benedikt: yeah, 

[00:51:11] Malcom: they, They, they, they don't think of you as a professional in that field. So they they're, they're, they're probably less confident in the decisions you're making. Not that they don't respect you and think that you're going to do a good job, but they, they, might just question it because they, I don't know, it it's, it's so deep, but you're probably gonna have a hard time and get a lot of pushback on directions because it's like, you know, you're now messing with your drummers, say you're the lead singer mixing. And you were like, you know, we're going to use a snare sample on the drums and just told the change to the drum sound. That's now like you've stepped into another band members world and made a decision for them. Which is kind of weird, right? Like the drummer might be like, whoa, that's my thing. Like, don't mess with my drums [00:52:00] where when a mixer comes in, it's like, I'm thinking about the song only.

[00:52:03] Benedikt: Yeah.

[00:52:03] Malcom: Um, and, and, you know, it's, it's, there's no like territory to step on. Yeah. that's, that's A that's an interesting perspective I hadn't really considered before. So you've got a little bit of an uphill battle. If you're mixing yourself there.

[00:52:16] Benedikt: A hundred percent also, you're going to, they're going to want to experiment. This is also something dangerous that sometimes happens. I have to sometimes explain that to artists that I'm working with, that the mixed revisions are not the time to start experimenting and changing the production and like adding things that haven't been there before. Sometimes. I mean, it could be that now that you're hearing everything more clearly and properly, it could be that some things become obvious that you just didn't really hear in the raw version of it. So in that case, it might be a good idea to go back and change things. But you have to be very careful because mixed revisions are really not the time to experiment and do a lot of changes to steps that should have been completed before that. And that's really dangerous. Sometimes my mixing clients want to do the same thing once they hear their [00:53:00] song properly. They come up with all these ideas and want to try all these different things and we can do that, but it's just, you have to basically start over. Sometimes it means it's a new mix basically. And sometimes it doesn't make things better because nobody's really objective at this point anymore. And you go down these rabbit holes that don't make the song better only to find out a week later that you should have just gone with whatever you had. So,

[00:53:23] Malcom: Right. Yeah. yeah. That's not the spot. You, you that's production decisions. Um, that's not what mixing is so careful with that. Yeah. no, I guess just still the draw, the line that when we were talking about these timelines, we are talking about delivering a mix. Um, so it's like, Hey, here's the mix of the song. I love it. Let me know if you want anything tweaked. That timeline doesn't include how long it takes to get revision notes back. You know, I I've had that happen before where I'm like, Yeah. I'll have you mixed back to you by the end of the month. And then they like, don't get notes back to me for like a week and a half because you know, bands organization doesn't seem to happen sometimes. And, [00:54:00] and then, then they're like, oh, we're behind. I'm like, no, you're behind. I delivered exactly what I said. I would. Um, you're, you're dragging your feet here.

[00:54:09] Benedikt: Yeah.

[00:54:09] Malcom: So I, I would, if you're mixing yourself really set deadlines, uh, that have to be like held like, all right, we're, we're doing our revisions on this date. And whatever isn't in by then, it's not happening kind of thing. Like, you know, set, set rules. You'll, you'll be thankful. 

[00:54:27] Benedikt: Yes, exactly. And, uh, this is, this also makes it sometimes difficult. If you've ever worked with a mix engineer, this is something that can cause confusion, where you come up with some sort of agreement and some sort of deadline. You want to know the delivery date, and the person tells you like the mixes are done, but the state and you agree. And you know, you schedule everything, you plan your release or whatever, and you totally forget that this is, as you said and come, this is the mixed delivery date without revisions typically. So when I send out an agreement or a proposal to a band, it always says like[00:55:00] delivery day, Excluding revisions. Like I can't, I can't, no, there's no point. I couldn't know like how long it actually takes. I can tell you when my, my version of the mix will arrive. And when I send something out it's to me, it's done because otherwise I wouldn't send it out. So you could use that and release it and move on. But if you feel like you don't want to use it for whatever reason, then I don't know how long it will take until we get over the finish line. So this is sometimes a little confusing to bands because they think that the deadline or the delivery date is the final thing, whereas everything's finished, but it's only like that if you don't have tons of revisions, so, and then your band, this could be much more difficult even than with a stranger, because you know, like we're friends. So let's just first for whatever reason, we tend to respect friends less when it comes to working with them. 

[00:55:47] So 

[00:55:48] Malcom: It's not respect them less. It's just less afraid of hurting their feelings. 

[00:55:51] Benedikt: it is. That's what it is. Yeah. It's harder to, it's harder to put boundaries in place on both sides though. It's like, yeah, we all get that. Okay. So. 

[00:55:58] Malcom: thing. 

[00:55:59] Benedikt: Okay. So [00:56:00] then, then there's mastering the final step usually. And you could do that during mixing. You could sort of combine the two and do a full master's sort of thing. You could just make it, allow it, and that could work. Uh, but you should probably, as Africa in band, I think that mastering is if you don't do anything else, maybe just outsource the mastering just to get a final quality control and to get some proper mixed feedback. And to, I think that's almost mandatory. Um, mastering is so hard to do yourself. It's just, yeah, I know it can be done. There are courses on that and all that, but it's like proper, if you like proper mastering, proper mastering, the quality control, all the metadata, all the different file formats for different platforms, all these things. Most bands, most artists just are not able to do that properly. I'd say so. So if you outsource the mastering and you do everything else yourself, it totally depends on the availability of your off your preferred mastering engineer. Of course, uh, mastering itself is pretty quick, but like who knows when the person has time, then there's revisions again. There's [00:57:00] another yeah, revision phase. Usually it's not as, as much as with when, if at all, like with mixing, but there might be revisions. so yeah, I'd say if you mix issue master yourself and that's, I'm interested in hearing your opinion, there might come because a lot of people say you should separate the two you should mix. And then that it sit there for a while and then do the mastering. I think that is true if you know what you're doing. I, and I think that is true for some people, but I could sort of change my mind that a little bit. And I think if you're mixing yourself, it's very hard to get back objectivity. Anyways, at this point, you've done too much to the song. So to me, if I do, if I mix and match. I sort of do it in the same session, almost like it's like part of mixing it's I do mastering. I do make sure it translates. Well, I do make sure I have the right loudness and all this, and I separate the technical step, the sequencing, the metadata and all that. I'd separate that, but like the Sonics, I do that as I'm mixing more or less, because I can only make it a sound as good as I [00:58:00] can. And it doesn't make a difference if I do it today or tomorrow in three days, it's just, when I'm done, I'm done. And like an external person could make it even better probably because it's a different room, different years, different perspective. But I can't, I, I took it as far as I could. So I think, and if you're mixing yourself, I think I would, if you do it yourself, the mastering, I would do it in the mixing session. I would make it the best you can make it sound the best and just take it as far as you can. And then just stop because I don't think a separate mastering session will make things better, but that's my.

[00:58:32] Malcom: No. Yeah. So I, that's a pretty old school methyl methodology. Maybe that's a word, but you know what I mean? Uh, it's pretty old school to go with the assumption that like, oh, I'm not going to do anything on the tour bus because the mastering is going to be that step. But most people, these days mix into some kind of chain. Um, and that might not be like quite a mastering chain, but it's, it's usually pretty close and most people mix into a limiter of some kind.[00:59:00] Because yeah. Why, why would you be making decisions that might get screwed up later? You just want to be making decisions, knowing that's the decision you've made. Um, so it's a, it's a more new school thought, but it is very popular and how most people seem to be doing it these days, regardless to if they plan to have it mastered. Um, we're most mixed up engineers are mixing into a chain, um, and then just turn it off to limit or, or whatever to give to the mastering engineer after the fact. Um, so that that's a little bit of misconception that I think some people aren't aware of that like you're allowed to be doing that stuff at the same time. It's okay. And, And, I would say you should, you should be making it sound exactly like you want it to, 

[00:59:41] Benedikt: Yep. Okay. All right. So let's sum it up real quick. So let's say, what do we go with an IEP or a record? Um, 

[00:59:50] Malcom: I like a song 

[00:59:52] Benedikt: a song. Okay. Yeah, let's do a song. Let's do a song. 

[00:59:53] Malcom: because you can assume that if you add more, it should get shorter because of batching and stuff. But a song is like our [01:00:00] minimum unit of measurement. 

[01:00:02] Benedikt: Okay. Okay. So the song let's say in the case of just one song, I'd say a week for like getting pre-pro done and refining the song, or would you say more than that, but I think a week should do, if you take your time and you work, you chip away at it every day, or you do batch it over two or three days, I think you should work for, for a song, right?

[01:00:22] Malcom: Yeah, now I get, that's the most abstract part of this, because I think that's probably, you know, that's not five or seven, eight hour days at all, you know, it's, um, that's like, uh, little sessions taking it and listening to it, you know, like all of the decision-making and stuff like that. Um, and, and like, yeah. yeah. So it's kind of hard to say how long that would take,

[01:00:44] Benedikt: yeah. 

[01:00:46] Malcom: I think the most important thing we could just say is give yourself a deadline for this, 

[01:00:50] Benedikt: Yes. I, I think so. I think so it will be done when you say will be done. If you say we need to, we need the pre-pro will be done next week. You'll get it done by next week. And if you say we'll be done in three months, it will take you [01:01:00] three months. 

[01:01:00] Malcom: It'll take three months. 

[01:01:01] Benedikt: yeah, yeah, exactly. But like no need to take forever. That's what I'm about to say. So I think with a normal life and a job and everything, if you have one weekend and maybe a couple of evenings, you could finish, you could do like two or three rounds of pre-pro maybe, and like, or refine what you already have. So it shouldn't take forever like a week or two or something, and then it should be done assuming that the song has already written. 

[01:01:22] Malcom: I agree. 

[01:01:23] Benedikt: cool. Then 

[01:01:24] Malcom: and sorry, interrupting, but going into, when I was producing and we were doing this, like over email, just like they're jamming sending me a new version. I send notes. They get together and jam send me new versions. Yeah. Generally that was about a week. I think that lines up really well. 

[01:01:39] Benedikt: Yep. Okay. So then the recording, uh, including the setup, I'd say. For one song, if you do it properly two to three days probably for one song.

[01:01:50] Malcom: Agreed. Yeah. I always aim for two days, but more often than not. And I've been two days plus an overdub session, like a little short session to get back in vocals [01:02:00] and percussion or whatever. 

[01:02:01] Benedikt: Yeah. So, and again, I'm saying that again, it's like two or three days usually, and it's totally normal. And I'm saying that because I had so many people that are mixing for telling me that, um, if, if I, if I ask, like, is there the possibility to change something? Like, did you record it yourself? Or with an external engineer? They're like, yeah, I did everything myself. And if I had to, I could rerecord the whole thing in an afternoon and then like, Hmm, probably not. So, you know, if you're that person it takes it should, it should actually take longer than just an afternoon to record a song properly, even if in professional scenario, you know, so.

[01:02:36] Malcom: maybe we should theorize on what is happening. If, if they're recording it in an afternoon, what, what is making that possible? Because it's, it's not possible. So something's happening. Something's being missed, right? 

[01:02:50] Benedikt: Okay. So let's assume they don't have to do a lot of setup because they programmed drums. Um, they like, they usually quantized or whatever they just do dis they don't have to worry about miking, amps and stuff. So they do the [01:03:00] bare minimum. Let's say that it's out of the way that that makes things faster. But even then I think an afternoon is not enough because I think what happens if people do that is they don't record enough takes. They, I think they end up using takes that are not really good. And you need to do a lot of tweaking and editing and fixing, and you should have spent more time really nailing the takes. And, um, I think that's what's most of the time what's happening. Most of the time the takes are just not good enough. Just a couple of hours.

[01:03:28] Malcom: totally agree. You know, buzzing strings that aren't meant to be heard happening. Um, little, you know, drum tempos all over the way editing is probably being skipped entirely in these, you know, do it in an afternoon sessions. There's probably no editing happening and we all know what that sounds like. Um, and. I mean, the, this the situation you just described tones are kind of not happening there. Isn't really tonal choices being made that much because the drums are virtual. It's just a DEI. Um, and there's going to [01:04:00] be a vocal probably. So there's like less engineering going on trying to sh tone shape, but there still is some, you know, you should still be monitoring, uh, uh, like, uh, amp SIM or something with your dyes. That should sound kind of like, you hope it will. Right? So there's still tone hunting to be done in those situations. And that is engineering, you know, creating the picture of how the song is going to sound. 

[01:04:21] Benedikt: Yeah. Also choosing the proper, like drum samples, the right kick drum, because how do you know which bass tone to go with? If you don't know which kick drum you're going to use, you know, all these things. So there is engineering definitely. And then even if you really keep that to a minimum, if you want to like the vocal tracking alone, if you have a proper vocal arrangement, which in most modern cases, it's more than just the lead vocal, a double and the harmony is like, could be 15, 20, 25, or more like vocal tracks. And these stacks and harmonies and like all these things, if you do it properly and to record that really well, that's just takes time. Like they have to be lined up properly. Like you shouldn't have like close of solo over the place coming from left and [01:05:00] right. And civil ins and all this, like the intonation of course, the feeling of the vocals, of course. So to, to properly track vocal layers and the good vocal arrangement that alone just takes time. Even if you skip the drums and guitars and that entirely. So. I I'd say that probably. Yeah. It's that's, that's what happening? I think people didn't pay enough attention to detail. That's what it is. And it's not because they don't want to. It's just because I think people are not aware or like you have to learn to even spot those things that you might honestly think that it's good enough and you're done. But compared to, to that professional standard, it's probably just not, and you should pay a lot of attention to all the details and you should never approach it with a, like this mindset of like, yeah, that's probably good enough that they're going to make it work. Like that's not what you want to do. We can probably make it work. If you outsource the mixing or do the editing, like usually we can do some sort of badging thing to make it work, but it's always better. If you pay attention to detail and deliver better takes. And if you're mixing yourself, you absolutely need to do that. Because if you don't do it [01:06:00] in tracking, chances are you don't do it and mixing as well. And then it gets skipped entirely and it ends up on the record. And everybody knows what that sounds like. These are the typical basement demos or the records that just don't sound like.

[01:06:11] Malcom: Right. Yeah. You're not happy. 

[01:06:13] Benedikt: No. Exactly. Okay. 

[01:06:15] So two three 

[01:06:16] Malcom: to three days, recording, editing, um, 

[01:06:19] Benedikt: editing, you'd say, I'd even say, if you edit yourself, it's probably longer than that. I'd say, if you do the whole song, everything completely yourself, and you're not experienced, it could maybe take you five days or a week to get that done, honestly. 

[01:06:31] Malcom: Yeah, depending on, on the music, for sure. Yeah. 

[01:06:35] Benedikt: If you're a metal band and you need a lot of editing and you have like blast beats and fast room fills and like guitars that needs that need to be spot on, on the drums and stuff, like it could take you a week to edit that properly and I can record and edit it properly.

[01:06:47] Malcom: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, so yeah, there there's, Yeah. there's, there's always situations that could be less and, and, you know, live off the floor, bed tracks and stuff that like, that's a different situation as well. Um, [01:07:00] but most bands are kind of doing that. Like most, uh, her customer avatar on this podcast is somebody that's probably doing, uh, either like a, uh, like permanently set up drum recording thing, or drum programming, like you said, and then using the eyes a lot and stuff like, that's kind of like the. Uh, like the bare minimum, that gets great results. Um, so that's kind of what this is all shaped around the overdubbing, small recording rig musicians. 

[01:07:28] Benedikt: Um,

[01:07:30] Malcom: okay. So Yeah. two to three days. That makes sense. Mixing. Now here's something we didn't say earlier that I thought we should mention mixing. So mixing a song in a day. Sure. That's great. Mixing a self recorded song in a day is kind of a different thing. I would say that Benny and I have a unique skillset in that we are professionals at getting tracks from self recorded bands. Um, that's like something we have [01:08:00] gotten, we're used to receiving files like that and they are, you know, usually there's something in there that's done differently than we're used to from a studio. Um, or like, uh, that somebody has got a producer and an engineer on board. Let's do it, all the editing and stuff. There's, there's kind of different tricks. You know, there might, there's probably a lot less drum mix than we're used to receiving from a big studio and stuff like that. So we have kind of unique skillsets that make us get those songs where we need them and want them to be despite how they were recorded. And you as trying to mix it yourself, Aren't there. 

[01:08:38] Benedikt: Yeah. 

[01:08:38] Malcom: Uh, like, so like, what I'm saying is that I think we actually should assume that if you're mixing it yourself, it's going to take longer than we estimated because of that. Um, it's more work is really what it boils down to 

[01:08:51] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, this, this app is a good, I could go on forever because there's so many things I'm thinking about, like so many [01:09:00] things that are specific to the self-reporting ban situation. So I would probably add a little to everything that we say here, because there's also the preparation of the, the sessions and stuff like the cleanup out, like how we are very good at, like, when we record, we keep our sessions sort of clean. We consolidate things. We, you know, all these things. And after, after you're done recording your session might be a mess. And then you, until you get to this to a spot where you can actually mix properly, that might be an additional day just to clean things up. You know, all these things, like, depending on that totally depends on your experience and how much, uh, how organized you are. All these things. We can really talk about that because we don't know your situation, but okay. Rule of thumb, but I still think. Two to three days to track and add it up to, like, let's say two days to between two days and a week, depending on your genre and all that, but that's still, that's still a timeframe. That's, that's good for people to know because it doesn't, we're not saying three months and we're not saying one afternoon, we say two days to a week or so for a song, and then you should definitely be done. And if that's not the case, you probably should get help. Um, [01:10:00] like hire someone, you know, or like organize yourself better or like take some time off or whatever. And then, okay. And then, um, the mixing, I'd say also maybe two to three days probably cleaning up everything and then do the actual mix. And then there's revision still depends on your communication and all that. We don't know that, but I'd say two to three days to mix and then anything from another two days to maybe two weeks or so until you've done, you're done doing the revisions.

[01:10:27] Malcom: Yeah. 

[01:10:28] Benedikt: So at this point we were looking at anything between a week and a month or so for us. 

[01:10:32] Malcom: Yeah, yeah. Um, Yeah. Yeah. And that, that seems crazy when we do add it up because I think a month is that I'm seeing the amount of time, but it is possible. 

[01:10:42] Benedikt: it is possible that, yeah, especially, especially with like pre-pro tracking editing, mixing, like it could take you a month. That's totally fine. It shouldn't take you much longer than that, but I would also be surprised if you, if you could get it done faster than the week or so. So I'd say between a week and a month, maybe per 

[01:10:58] song. 

[01:10:59] Malcom: I think that [01:11:00] you should be aiming for a week. I really do think that most people would probably benefit. I think the product would benefit if they were like, we're going to get it done this week. We've let's book out our time slots, like, you know, we're we got the weekend. Maybe, maybe call it a call it like two weekends. Like, so start on a weekend, have some evening sessions through the work week and then finish on the weekend 

[01:11:23] Benedikt: Yes. That way you can do the pre-pro during the work week, um, in the evenings, finished the demos on the weekend, you're going to record, then you give yourself the evenings again, to clean things up, you know, and do things. And then the next week, and you're going to mix that sounds like a solid plan maybe.

[01:11:37] Malcom: I like that. And having it plotted out and on a calendar and kind of, you know, use that motion app that just got mentioned at the beginning of this episode. Uh, but, uh, like, you know, deadlines, deadlines, deadlines, that's so much of what being a professional is is hitting deadlines and hitting those kinds of like progress markers. So don't undervalue that at all [01:12:00] and, And strive it. Like, it's weird because I think when you're getting into this, you think more time is better, but it's, I really think that's often the opposite. I think the product would probably benefit from trying to do less time and it's like higher quality, more focused work in less 

[01:12:16] Benedikt: Yes. And I'd say gets a lot shorter when we talk about EPS and records like full records albums, because a lot of the prep work will be the same for all the songs. You might have to do things over and over again, but the thought like you don't have to think about it as much. And like some things are just done. So I'd say even if the first song takes you a month to really get everything done from pre-pro to final mix, it still could be possible to do the whole record in three months or so, which would be reasonable for self recording band. So, okay. So for one song, anything between a week and a month or so I would consider, okay. For an AP or a record, anything that's longer than three or four months. Start questioning the plan, or I would be worried that you actually get it done. And [01:13:00] I've seen bands successfully pull it off in a year and a half a year. So that could be done. But as you sat and I'll come, I, I try to do it faster, but I'd also not go for like a record in a week or so. So again, this is balance. Okay. And then there's one thing we need to, oh, sorry. Yeah.

[01:13:15] Malcom: Well, we might be on the same trend here that this timeline is about doing everything yourself more or less, right. Mixing and mastering and stuff like that. Where if you are a band that is prioritizing content, like you're, you're much more concerned about having music out there in the world, then being learning how to do this stuff. There's huge advantages to outsourcing some of these steps. And then time would be a huge one. Like I got like Benny who might be able to mix two or three songs in a day. You're going to get that album done a lot quicker. If all you have to do is record. You know, you just got to get the songs down and send them to somebody like Benny or myself. And then you just get the songs back way quicker, way quicker than you were expecting. [01:14:00] Right. Now you are just constantly churning out material, sending it off. I have a relationship with a band called what future I've mentioned on this and that's what they do. They just record tracks. Send it to me. This, I feel like I'm just like every month I get a song from them and we're just on, on this like cycle and it's so quick and efficient and they've just got content lined up. They've got like two or three songs in the bank ready to go. It's awesome. 

[01:14:21] Benedikt: Yeah. Um, I agree with everything. If you schedule that properly and you book early enough, because 

[01:14:31] Malcom: yes. 

[01:14:32] That's 

[01:14:32] Benedikt: you, when you're telling me that, like, it's your plan and that in three months you want to record this record and you need the mixed by then. And by that so-and-so date, then we'll absolutely make that happen. And you get it back within a couple of days, because I know it's going to happen. If you tell them. We are recording this week and next week on Wednesday, we need the mix. It's not going to happen because that's just, you know, everybody's different and not everybody's booked up, but like you have to plan [01:15:00] that stuff ahead and book your sessions and next stick to your deadlines because our calendars are full. Like if professional, like not, it's not the same for everybody, but most professional mixers are booked out, like sometimes months in advance, like, but at least weeks in the last probably. It could, it's faster from the moment you sent the songs, like from the starting date of the mixing project to the final mixes, this will be much faster than doing it yourself, but between booking it and actually starting the mix could be two or three months or three or four weeks. So whatever it is like in my case, sometimes if you, if you hit me up now, you'll get your mixes back in late April, probably the earliest, because I'm booked up until that time, you know? So, and, and you don't need to think about those things because that can totally mess up the whole schedule that you made for yourself, if you don't 

[01:15:49] Malcom: Yeah. You, this is again, just more reason to be making hard deadlines on the calendar for the whole band and to see, be like, all right, we're finishing, tracking this day period. [01:16:00] And that lets you book somebody from mixing in advance. Right. And you're like, you're going to have files by this day. We promise. So that means that you could be mixing like your, or your assistant can be edited, like prepping them the next day. You know, if, if the mixer knows that's coming and uh, I mean, they're probably going to collect a deposit from you to ensure that you stick to it. But uh, like, Yeah, it's totally possible to get way ahead of the curve. I, I don't know if I should say this. It's like my seat. I usually I'm just going to do it. I usually keep a couple slots open for singles in my calendar. So yeah, it's like, you know, you got one and you get excited and you're like on a slugs kick ass. I want to do it right now. And uh, it works with singles, but if it, if you hit me up and you're like, I got a whole album mixed right now, it's like, well, that's going to be a while out. Um, it's just, yeah. because I can't fit all that in right now. 

[01:16:53] Benedikt: I actually keep my whole schedule pretty flexible. This is why I'm so excited about an app, like motion, because I had to do it manually all the time. So I don't [01:17:00] really book fixed slots for, even for albums, because I just know the reality is even if people pay a deposit and they say they want to stick to it, life will get in the way and they're going to deliver late or something. And I was just tired of that. And I D I don't want to make people pay more because of that. Like, so what happens now is I want to know about, like, you give me some, some sort of dates, some sort of, when do you want this to be finished? You know? And then I know that it's going to happen there. And when we get closer to the date, we sort of agree on a, on a certain date, but there's always a little bit of buffer and it's a little bit of flexibility there, and I'm pretty good at navigating that. But if you deliver way late, if you say you're gonna, we're going to do it in April, but then you deliver it in June. That might mean you need to wait two months or so, because like, you know, th th that's, I think everybody understands that it's. Planning ahead, communicating well, sticking to your own deadlines, making realistic deadlines, like just, just plan a buffer in, into everything you do. Um, and then it should, it should [01:18:00] work out. Just know that don't be surprised if a mixer tells you, uh, yeah, I can get, I can do that EAP in half a year or so. Like I know like really busy, um, great mixers who they are already, already booked out for the rest of the year. And, and I've been in situations. It's always changes for me, but I've been in situations where I was booked up half a year in advance and for full length records at the moment, it would be probably July or something until I can give you a slot. So that always changes, but like, don't be surprised if a mixer tells you that.

[01:18:30] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. The more content you've got being recorded, the, the more you need to think about this, for sure.

[01:18:36] Benedikt: Yeah. Or do you find a model where you're like, okay, every month we're going to send you a song or two and you can work something out that way, because as you sat in a can we always have like a little flexibility for singles usually. And if you can say, okay, like, let's do just one a month, then you get, you have regular content. You don't have to wait forever until you get it. And when everything's done, you can still put it on a record if you want, you know, there's always ways just plan ahead and [01:19:00] communicate well.

[01:19:01] Malcom: Exactly. Exactly. That communication solves everything. 

[01:19:04] Benedikt: Yeah, exactly. All right. So yeah, that was a little bit, that was a rambly one, but I think a valuable, yeah, 

[01:19:11] Malcom: an incredibly rambling. 

[01:19:13] Benedikt: yeah, but I, I still think a good one and I think we got it. You got it across. I think that the whole takeaway, the main takeaway is chest. Don't rush it, but don't take forever and. No, that I'd say that we've ended up on a pretty good, like basic sort of recommendation timeline. Just know that like anything between a week and a month for a song is okay. And, um, there was a lot of hidden things in between what 

[01:19:40] Malcom: Yeah, that that's, that's, why it was so roundly as you. And I just kept kind of having like, well, what if, what if and like little ideas coming up. And so it was interesting for us to talk about this as well, but I, I hope through osmosis of us questioning our own thoughts, you've been able to kind of pick up some perspective on how long this should be taking you. 

[01:19:59] Benedikt: [01:20:00] Yeah, exactly. Look at your life, at the most important things in your life, that you just can't reschedule and then find space in your calendar where you can fit the music in and then just plan it out and see how long it will actually take you. And we're talking about like net time that you actually work on it in most cases. Even if it's like three months in your case, because you're really busy and you have a crazy job and a family and kids. If you stick to the process and you work that one evening that you have per week or so, if you can keep working on your song, it might take you longer, but the overall time you work on it, shouldn't be longer because of that. So just do whatever fits into your life, but just find a way to not make it take forever. Okay. I hope that was helpful despite all the rambling and. We'll get to more actionable audio stuff again in the future. I promise. But sometimes episodes like these are important because whenever I've have the feeling that people are confused about a topic or there's conflicting information out there, we need to talk about it.[01:21:00] 

[01:21:00] Malcom: And yeah, I know that, uh, ideally you're going to get quicker every time, you know, the first time it's gonna take a while. Cause there's going to, you're going to get stuck with your dog and, you know, figuring different software out. There's so many little obstacles ahead, but that's part of it. So just embrace it And know that you're learning so that the next one will go even smoother. It's all good. It's the

[01:21:22] Benedikt: And if you, and if you think you could use some accountability and someone to walk you through all this, to guide you through this, uh, to make a plan with you, to create a roadmap with you, to make sure you actually finished the project, you said you want to finish or to make you, um, spend more time on it because otherwise you'll, you'll be cutting corners or whatever. If you need someone like that in your life, then, um, book a free call with me. And let's talk about that because that's exactly what I do in my coaching program. Like I'm there to hold people accountable to walk them through the process, to tell them, Hey, this needs more time more work, or, Hey, we should get that done faster because you're taking forever. I'm going to show you exactly why things are taking. [01:22:00] And I would change. I'm going to show you why you're not paying enough attention to detail, or I'm going to tell you when things are excellent, whatever it is, but like I'm there to guide you through this. That's what I do. So if you feel like you could benefit from that, then just go to the surf recording band.com/call book a free first call with me. Let's talk about your project, your music, the thing you're working on, you want to finish and let's see if I can help you take that over the finish line without it taking forever.

[01:22:26] Malcom: Do it do it. It's such a good idea. Awesome. Um, I want to shamelessly plug something as well. Um, the, my other podcast, your band sucks app business. We just recorded an episode last two weeks ago. That's coming out on, uh, the first Tuesday of March, which will be have happened by the time this episode is out. I think, um, I love this episode. I, it, it was such a good, good chat. Uh, we have our friend Kurt doll on who is an entertainment lawyer. And he's also kind of a rock star. He's, he's just a drummer in a band called one [01:23:00] bad son, which has done some really cool stuff. Um, they're like, you know, they're the real deal and, uh, and yeah, such a good hang, but we, we talked about like, um, like copywriting and ownership stuff. Um, in particular like, uh, Taylor swift rerecording her catalog again, um, to kind of like regain ownership of her master recordings. Um, it, it was just a crazy conversation I've learnt so much. And I feel like, uh, our audience would probably really enjoy it. 

[01:23:27] Benedikt: Definitely, definitely go to what, what do they go to? You'll find socks at business.

[01:23:31] Malcom: Yep. That'll do it. Or just search it on Spotify or if you're a podcast app, whatever, you'll find it for sure. 

[01:23:37] Benedikt: Yeah. There's a lot of really cool episodes um, that I'll have full for every recording band. I think on there, if you want to check that out, there's some crazy entertaining, um, episodes. Like I remember the one with Joel one a sec, that was like 

[01:23:49] Malcom: Yeah. That was the fun one. 

[01:23:52] Benedikt: controversial also in some cases, but like, yeah, it's just an entertaining thing and like so many cool things to take away from that episode. Then there's the [01:24:00] episode with Jacob Hansen, who we had on the podcast as well. That, that one I remembered and love. So a lot of cool tons of cool interviews. And, um, I think you should take that part just as serious if you wanna. Yeah. If you want people to listen to your music, which we all do. Right. So,

[01:24:14] Malcom: Totally. Totally. I assume so. 

[01:24:17] Benedikt: yeah. All right then, uh, thank you for listening. See you next 

[01:24:22] Malcom: Thank you. Bye.

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