Malcom: 0:00

If I grab the vocal and turn it up one DB, it doesn't get one DB louder because there's a compressor in the way that is saying no, something should happen. But it's not doing exactly what you think it is doing, and a good mixer is going to actually probably go about that in some other way.

Benedikt: 0:16

This is the self recording band podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own wherever you are DIY style, let's go. Hello and welcome to the self recording band podcast. I am your host, benedictine. If you're new to this show, welcome. So glad to have you. This is where we teach you how to make exciting sounding records from wherever you are. Your jam space, your home studio, doesn't really matter. We show you what we do and we help you Implemented. If you go to the self recording band dot com slash call and book a free we have consultation call with us there because we have a coaching program where we go deep into all the things that we talk about on this podcast. So if you need More help and want to know how to apply all the things talk about here to your own music, go to the self recording band dot com slash call if you are already a listener. Thank you for coming back. Very glad to have you. Thank you for hanging out with us again. This show is available on YouTube as well as on all kinds of podcast apps. So if you're discovering this on YouTube, just know that you can also listen on the go on Spotify or Apple podcasts and or whatever podcast platform you're using, and vice versa. Alright, so today we're talking about mix bus compression, and this is a topic that I don't know. It's like we have talked about our mix bus chains, but we didn't dive deep into individual parts of it, and mix bus compression, to me, is the most important thing that I have on there, and I've got a few questions from people on this topic already, so I'm excited that we finally get to talk about it. We're going to talk about what we use as mix bus compressors go to settings we have, how we actually use them and why, and, as always, I'm doing this with my friend and co host, malcolm Owen flood. Hello, malcolm. How are you? Hey, benny, I'm great man. How are you? I'm great too. Thank you so much at an amazing weekend.

Malcom: 2:09

And I hope you do?

Benedikt: 2:10

you had one too.

Malcom: 2:11

I went on a helicopter ride. Oh wow, that was awesome. I've been on a helicopter before and it's wild. I love it. I wish I could fly one myself.

Benedikt: 2:21

Yeah, I've heard it's crazy difficult to fly one compared to the planes and stuff, but oh, I could see that, yeah, it doesn't look easy, but it was so fun.

Malcom: 2:29

It was so fun so why did you do it?

Benedikt: 2:32

What was the reason for that?

Malcom: 2:33

It was actually like a photography gig. I've been getting the odd photography gig since I picked up cameras and and this was like it was. I mean, this is so not related to music, but real quick, there's this. I mean, I live on an island and there's islands all around us as you know, benny, you've been here and there's an island called Cox Island off the top of North, like the very North tip of Vancouver Island, and we, there was a team of people doing a beach clean up there, because stuff just washes up on the beaches and stuff like that and needs to get cleaned, and nobody lives on these islands up there. So You're like the only way to clean, keep these places not polluted, is for people to go there and volunteer their time to clean up. So there was a big beach cleanup going on up there and then we were flown out to, I mean, a buddy to like photograph and film them doing their thing, which they're going to use this marketing material to help get more money fund raised so that they can continue doing beach clean ups.

Benedikt: 3:24

Cool project. That's exciting, definitely cool project. Very, very cool. It's quite the operation.

Malcom: 3:28

They're like hauling it all out with these helicopters as well. Yeah, it was cool.

Benedikt: 3:33

Awesome like that's. That's really important and then the real cool thing to be a part of awesome congrats. So is it like, how much is it like a balance between audio work and photography and video stuff? Like what's the balance there?

Malcom: 3:44

is it more one of the I wouldn't say there's really a balance at this point, like like there's definitely a balance between my music and my television audio work.

Benedikt: 3:52

but that's all audio.

Malcom: 3:54

Yeah, that's all audio and then. But like, as far as camera work, that's like pretty few and far between. I mean, I'm always happy to do it, I love learning to do that stuff, but I wouldn't say that I'm like a professional videographer or anything like that.

Benedikt: 4:08

Yeah, but I seen your stuff and it looks pretty, pretty, pretty amazing. So yeah, so one thing I wanted to talk about before we dive into today's topic is that the studio, studio scene I'm going to pronounce it the German way because it's called like that the studio scene event in Hamburg is approaching, it's getting closer, it is in. It's happening in October actually, and let me look up the dates again I think it's.

Malcom: 4:33

Seventeen to nineteenth October.

Benedikt: 4:35

I think that correct.

Malcom: 4:37

When this episode comes out, it's like pretty much exactly a month then.

Benedikt: 4:40

Yeah, yeah, it's October seventeenth to October nineteenth there's going to be in case you haven't heard, there's going to be a big event in Hamburg. It's called studio senior or studio scene in English, and what it is is. It's a mix of sort of a trade show, sort of name type of thing, where audio manufacturers show up their latest gear and they're doing workshops and demos and stuff. But it's also An education thing where the big names from the audio industry, from the music industry, are going to do master classes. So we got people like Warren Hewart, jason Joshua, jill Zimmerman, what it's and just look it up on their website. It's like a cool roster of like really amazing people doing master classes there on all kinds of topics. And, like you get, you have the chance to go there and, you know, attend these master classes and listen to, you know Grammy winning producers, mixers, and learn from them and ask questions. And we're going to be there to the whole team, actually, malcolm Thomas Wayne, our podcast editor, and myself we're going to be there in Hamburg for the entire event and actually a little before that and after that we're going to be on a really cool boat house boat that has a studio on it, which is super amazing, cool. Yeah, we haven't mentioned that yet have we?

Malcom: 5:50

Yeah, no, I don't think so.

Benedikt: 5:51

So we're going to be living on that boat for a week and use the studio there and do cool things there. There's nothing I can really talk about yet, but we have some ideas and we're going to be at this event. We're going to be interviewing people live, we're going to document the event, we're going to hang out there with people, and the reason why I'm telling you this is because we would love to see you there. So if you are in Europe at this time or if you live there, it's really worth going there. Like flights are within Europe are pretty cheap. You can go there by train, by car, whatever. In the tickets you know are also not too expensive. There's multiple ways you can get access. There's like one day tickets, three day tickets, with or without masterclasses. Whatever you end up doing, if you go there, please let us know, because we're trying to set up like a community. Meet up there. We love to see our listeners there and we'd really love to just yet to just hang out. More details on that. Soon it's going to be a little more organized, but for now, I just want to want you to know that we would love to to meet you and to hang out with you absolutely love that. That's going to be really exciting and the website is going to be in the show notes so you can, you can click there and see, like, all the info and schedule and tickets and stuff. Let's just go to the podcast show notes and click on that website. You can get your tickets there. And, yeah, love to love to see you there, absolutely.

Malcom: 7:09

Yeah, I'm beyond excited for this. Benny just actually showed me on the website, before we start recording this, that are like the schedules out and we're like listed on there and it felt so cool just seeing Benny and I on the schedule there and like who we're going to be interviewing. Seeing it's something, rather than being told it is just different. It's different. Oh, this is real, we're doing it.

Benedikt: 7:29

Yeah, it's real. Yeah, it's going to be so excited like can't wait to meet all these people, to interview them and to to document this, and it's kind of crazy, yeah.

Malcom: 7:39

Totally, totally, yeah, and if anybody, any listeners are going, please let us know. Love to meet up, and I'm going to be in Amsterdam for a few days before the event as well. If anybody wants to meet up there, I'll be in town hanging out playing with my camera.

Benedikt: 7:52

Yeah, totally, totally do that and again, there will be more info on like how the meetups sort of thing. You can always just come and hang out and you'll see us, will be visible, you'll find us and we'll just hang out. But other than that, I'll try to come up with something, because we have this cool boat there With you know, it's really really cool. It's got a bar and like a stage on deck and like a studio and lounge and stuff. So maybe we can I don't know how, how easy it is to get to that thing, but maybe we can, you know, organize something and get some people on onto that boat. We'll see. Now to the episode. Finally, mixed bus compression. We were told that you guys like the in depth episodes that we've done recently, so with this is going to be one more of these where we focus on one specific thing, and this today it's going to be mixed, mixed bus compression. So, if you're not aware, mixed bus compression means we compress our mixes as a whole. So not individual parts of it, not individual elements, but the mix as a whole. There's several reasons for that, but I think the main ones are to glue everything together To enhance, sort of, the groove of the song and to create a certain vibe. It just puts, you know, a certain vibe on the entire thing. And, yeah, this is at least that. Those are my main reasons for doing it is the groove, it's the vibe, the character of it, and it's the the glue factor sort of where it makes the all the individual elements seem like they belong together really. And, yeah, this is sort of the explanation of what it is, and now we dive into how we actually use it. And what we use, I don't know, malcolm is, is that something you still do? Probably right.

Malcom: 9:20

Oh, absolutely yes, I am 100% of the time and mixing through a Mixbus compressor, maybe not from the very first second I start the mix, but like, pretty quick in, there's going to be one there and like. There's a couple examples or like ways of phrasing it that I relate to. One came from my mentor, zach Cohen, at the Wichop recording studios where I first interned, and he explained it to me because I didn't get it at all. Compression in general was just like invisible to me when I first started. I couldn't hear it, I didn't know why we needed it. I could see the meter move, but just like was confused. And Mixbus compression was even more subtle. So I really didn't get it. Why are we doing this? Why would we want to process everything with the same piece of gear, more plug-in, like? That just seemed ridiculous to me. It's in the whole point that we can do it on individual tracks, and he explained it in a way that really worked for me and that was you need to create the box that you're going to paint within, so it's like creating a canvas. You need a frame so that you can actually present a finished piece of art at the end. Without that, there's no bounds and it just doesn't really. It spills over and it's like space is constantly expanding and you never end up with something finished, and that really worked for me. The other way, I heard and you're going to have to forgive me whoever said this. I don't remember who said it, but I just remember that it was something like mixing is making a lot of stuff go through a really small straw. I love that, and compression helps get it through that straw.

Benedikt: 11:01

Yeah, yeah, and it's right. It's right. Yeah, you're totally right. Love that. Yeah, and you said one thing there that I want to quickly touch on, and that is you said you mix into the compressor. That's really important to understand. I think that you don't just finish the mix and then you put the compressor on it at the end. This is what you would do in mastering, but it's a different approach, different step of the process, different mindset, and so if you're a mastering engineer and you get a final mix that might have been compressed already, but you still apply a compression, probably to the entire mix, but that is mastering and it's a completely different thing. What we're talking about is compressing it as you mix, and that usually means you mix into the compressor. I know that some people, or might probably do it differently, but the majority of mixes, I think, mix into the compression. Because of what, malcolm? What is the reason for that? Why do you do that?

Malcom: 11:52

Well, what you're hearing as you mix is going to dictate what decisions you make in your mix. And if you make all these decisions and then throw a compressor on after the fact, all of those changes I mean all of those decisions no longer make sense in the new context that you've just created. So most people would agree it makes sense to mix into a compressor, through a compressor, because now you're actually hearing what that compressor is going to do to your elements. So you can then decide oh, I do need to turn the snare up, or I? You know things have gotten a little bit darker as I push more stuff into the mix, the compressor is kind of rounded off our transients. I need to bring back more attack and sizzle and like it's going to just give you the information you need in real time to make actual mixing decisions.

Benedikt: 12:42

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, just yeah, everything you change. Something you change is how the mix bus compressor behaves and you want to react to that. And yeah, and it's a concept that I had to sort of get used to, because I have to admit, in the beginning, when I first started using mix bus compression, I pretty much put it on there at the end and played around with it and mixing into it took a while for me to get used to. I always, also in the beginning, I always had the, had the plug in on, basically, and watch the meters, because I was afraid I was like pushing into the compression too much and would not hear it. And but now I got to a point where I'm so comfortable that I don't even have to see it, I just hear it and hear how it feels. And I will check it from time to time and sometimes I'm surprised how much I'm compressing or how little I'm compressing, but I do whatever feels great. And yeah, it's something you have to. You have to just practice, as so many things in audio, right Told you.

Malcom: 13:29

Yeah, the thing that was really hard for me to figure out was how do you know which compressor to use or what settings to start with, because it's not necessarily doing a lot and the mix isn't finished when you're putting this on. So, like, how do you make that decision? And that is like a really weird, vague concept to try and figure out when you probably can't even hear the difference it's making. If you're just starting out as a mixer like you, just compressions subtle I mean can be subtle so like it is, it takes some practice to hear it and it takes some practice and experience to understand what the different knobs on your compressor do. And we have episodes on that. You should go go back through our compressor compression deep dives and learn about compressors so you can actually, like kind of intuitively, know what you wanted to do. And then, once that experience kind of starts stacking up, you start knowing what each of your compressors sounds like and how to manipulate it to make it sound a certain way. So we are mixing through our compressor but we're actually first choosing a compressor that's going to complement the song that we're working on and then setting it up to complement the source tracks. Yeah, so if we need you know snappier drums, that's going to be one compressor. You know, if we want things to be really bumpy and gluing like fat, that's going to be a different compressor. You know, it's choosing the right tool for the job and then setting it to react the way you need, based on the tracks you've been given.

Benedikt: 15:05

Yeah, totally agree. So, but I think that there is, at least for me was. I agree. I had the same problems in the beginning, but I think there are starting points, that kind of work for all kinds of music if you're just starting out. So I think, for example, looking at like what most people or many, many mixers use on their mixes and trying to start with that is never a bad idea. And so if you choose something like an SSL bus compressor thing you know countless records have been mixed on SSL consoles that have that compressor built in it will probably work for you. It might not be, it might not end up being your ultimate like favorite compressor, you might change it at some point, but you can definitely get results with it and start experimenting with bus compression if you pick, like, the specific tool that is made for that job, basically I think. So that would be the first one that I would recommend. And the SSL is, if you don't have a plugin like that, there's countless emulations, maybe even free ones. If you don't have an SSL compressor, then just know that it is a VCA compressor and that's the type of compressor you want. It's fairly quick and punchy. It's not nothing like tube or very new or anything exotic. It's like a pretty basic, relatively clean, punchy, quick compressor and if you're in whatever your DAW has like a basic stock compressor can do it and VCA type compressor can do it, and if you can get your hands on an SSL emulation, that would be definitely a good starting point.

Malcom: 16:27

Yeah, I feel like you and I could probably list off the settings for that SSL that most people would say you should start with and probably have the exact same results.

Benedikt: 16:38

So I'll go.

Malcom: 16:41

Attack as slow as possible 30 milliseconds on the. Ssl Release as fast as possible.

Benedikt: 16:48

Yep, or auto or auto. Yeah, those two is always one of those two for me, almost always Fast as possible, or if I want a punchy, or auto if I want it more invisible. Basically.

Malcom: 16:58

And then ratio two or four.

Benedikt: 17:03

Yep.

Malcom: 17:04

Yeah, true.

Benedikt: 17:05

True, however, I have an analog Mixbus Compressor and the new, the V2, of the SSL native Mixbus Compressor plug-in that both have a three to one option which I think the original doesn't have, and I really love that the most. Like three to one is where it's at for me.

Malcom: 17:23

Yeah, but it is between two and four.

Benedikt: 17:25

So you're totally right. So two to one.

Malcom: 17:28

Now, that's that, like it's funny that that's how I used like when I first got started. I eventually caved Godness's Compressor plug-in and did exactly that for a long time and it will work.

Benedikt: 17:38

It like that is a really safe setting, depending on how much you compress, like make sure that the needle is somewhere like not over, I'd say, four or so max, like if it's around between one and three or so, you're fine probably, and then you can adjust to like you will hear what happens If it's like if you go too far, it sounds a little squeezed, a little narrow, maybe a little pumping, and just dial it in the way you want it.

Malcom: 17:59

And yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah it works. It gives you that framework to do a mix within. On most songs it's going to somehow like it's a pretty safe setting. That said, I almost never land on that anymore. I'm constantly pushing attacks faster and releases slower and getting all over the place with it. I would say that I'm never landing on the same setting any time nowadays. I don't know why that is. It took forever, but now this is where I've landed.

Benedikt: 18:30

Awesome, that is very interesting. So, yeah, elaborate on that. Like why did you, what didn't you like about it and what do you like now about it?

Malcom: 18:40

I mean, like I think I do like it, but I think that I'm just finding that I'm happier, especially now that I'm introducing it early, like very early in my mixing process, that I'm just getting closer to where I want by going heavier with my Mixbus compressor. And small caveat here this is actually an instrument bus compressor for me. My Mixbus compressor is exactly what we just described. It is that super safe SSL setting, but it's barely doing anything.

Benedikt: 19:08

Are you still having it on the Mixbus? You just have a different thing on the instrument bus.

Malcom: 19:12

Exactly so the vocals are bypassing it and that is generally a much faster, more aggressive compressor these days. But that is like I've been doing hard rock, rock songs. You know where I want pump. I want a very compressed, aggressive thing going on. So if it wasn't that, I probably wouldn't. But yeah, I just wanted to mention it because I did the kind of standard SSL set up for years and years and years, but for the last at least 12 months, maybe even two years, it's been pretty dramatically different. So I say that all to say that don't be afraid to experiment.

Benedikt: 19:51

And what is it specifically that you're using? Does it change, or you?

Malcom: 19:55

know, normally it's that. Is it Townsend compressor or Town?

Benedikt: 20:02

It's plug-in alliance yeah, but that is an SSL one, right?

Malcom: 20:05

Oh, yes, yes, yes, but it's just that I'm going A modded one and I say it sounds more aggressive than like the SSL plug-in More grabby. And, yeah, much more grabby. That's the perfect way of describing it. But that, or Vertigo, is another VCA compressor they make, and I'm just Both the same sort of topology, though like the same type of compressor. You just use it more aggressively? Yeah, and I would say that the Vertigo is much less grabby, much more transparent and clean, and it has a multi-mono mode. I'm fine.

Benedikt: 20:38

But punchier to me like less grabby but adds more. That's more of the transient through Exactly which? Makes it a great drum bus compressor also.

Malcom: 20:46

Yeah, so those two are my go-to, like 99% of the time is one of those two. But yeah, yeah, I just like. I'm saying that because there's a lot of different ways to do in this and there's people good mixers that do the exact opposite of that first setup we described. Their attack is as fast as possible and their release is very slow, or the release is also slow, which is just like crazy, and I don't know how they pull that off, but they do. But yeah, so like, yeah, you should probably start where we suggested, but I do want you to experiment along the way.

Benedikt: 21:21

Yeah, totally, I'd say. I don't know, like the release is also mystery to me how you could they work with a very long release. Maybe the genre just never really works for me. If it's too long it just gets too obvious and I want it to be out of the way really quickly. But, like with the attack, I can see I've had success with different settings too. I don't use it very often, but on the occasional mix where for some reason my snare ended up being a little too pokey to stick it out too much or whatever, then I might opt for a 10 millisecond or even the what is the next shortest one. Mine is different, my modded one. But like even then, whatever is faster than the 10 setting works sometimes to just make the snare sort of I don't know blend with the mix better in a way.

Malcom: 22:11

Just push it back a little bit, and it's often about the snare for me, that I do this.

Benedikt: 22:16

So yeah, I don't know if you know what I mean. It's hard to describe. There's this phenomenon, often, where everything works perfectly but the snare is sticking out too much, and then the mixed bus compressor really helps push it into the mix and it makes it feel like a song more in a way.

Malcom: 22:28

I don't know I told you, benny and I are both obsessed with explosive sounding snares, and that's something like I kind of know about myself and I like it more than my clients do. So, actually, like a fast attack compressor kind of helps combat that. It forces me to sit it a little further back. You can't get past your bus compressor. That's a really kind of cool way to think about this too. What you do there is going to force you into a situation and that, when you're starting out, can really work against you. You can really get stuck and then you're like I like it and I make the vocal louder. It's like because it's just already slammed. You've left no headroom. You got nothing left to give there and so like you got to keep an eye on what your compressor is doing at the end of the chain. You can't just keep pushing more and more into it. But yeah, so like how you set that up, like the attack, for example, is going to kind of dictate how far forward your snare can be in a way, how that transient is able to get through the mix. So I can kind of combat my own tendencies a little bit with a faster attack.

Benedikt: 23:29

Yeah, yeah, agreed, totally makes sense. So alternatives would be for me I mean, for me it's SSL, really 99% of all time Some variation of SSL, either my hardware or the SSL native plugin. That I like a lot really. And then there is, but there's the occasional mix where I use something differently. What I also like is very mu type of compressors, so there's like something like the Manly, very mu. There's a plugin by Pulsar. Is the company PULSAR? I think it's a French company, I might be wrong, but like Pulsar, they make great plugins, amazing sounding plugins actually Like they're very mu is the best one I've heard in plugin form. Also, they're massive passive is the best one I've heard. They're Q, anyway, but this very new plugin is great on the mix bus, a little harder to dial in, it's a little more obvious than in the SSL, but if it works it's great for slower material for me. So not the super aggressive stuff, but like, if more sparse arrangement, acoustic things, singer, songwriter, that type of thing, I don't know, it just works really well for that For me. Then there is, you know, fair, child type compressors, which is also very mu sort of design with tubes and other fancy things. But some people like those. What else is there? I mean, you could try anything basically, but I think a rule of thumb would be start with something rather clean. So I wouldn't start with like an 1176 or something that's really uncommon on a mix bus. It's very aggressive, has like a distortion that you don't probably don't want on all of your mix. I'm not saying it can't work, but it's a rather like uncommon choice dirty compressor like that, or even like the stressors that are really great compressors but even those have like pretty not really transparent for enough for a mix bus. So you want to go for something clean and transparent to start out with, I think, and then you can always add, you know, whatever saturation you want on top of that. I would rather do that and have control over it than using a very dirty compressor. That's obviously exception, but that would be my sort of rule of thumb. And then I want to add one specific thing that is very important for to how I work, especially these days when you listen to anything current, anything modern, even outside of, like pop and hip hop and that sort of stuff. The low end has become bigger and bigger the last couple of years to me, and it's in many mixes and productions and people really like that. Also, like in modern metal and stuff, if you listen to that, there's a really big, massive low end and the SSL compressor or compressors of that style tend to make the low end a little smaller. There's something about the makeup gain that has a sound, but also the compression. It just makes the low end tighter, which is great, but also a little smaller, and oftentimes you just can't get a really big sounding kick drum or sub information of the bass guitar to make it through that bus compressor sometimes and so at least I feel like that's the case Wasn't really an issue, I guess like decades ago or like years ago. But like these days, when people really want a big low end or when I want a big low end, it's kind of hard with a standard SSL to me, and so mine that I have here and also the SSL native plugin both have a sidechain filter that you can use. So I usually filter at like 60 to 70, 60 to 65 hertz something like that is my sweet spot where I usually use the sidechain filter and that just means that a loud kick drum hit is not going to trigger the compressor as much and it reacts more evenly between like the kick and snare. I can compress a little harder without it pumping too much and I get more of the low end coming through in a way. So that sidechain filter is really a big one for me and I wouldn't want to use an SSL on most mixes without that these days.

Malcom: 27:05

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great thing we got to add into the conversation. Is the low pass filter. High pass filter. High pass filter, Low cut on the sidechain.

Benedikt: 27:14

It's a little complicated. What it means is just a little explanation. What it means is the compressor. The sidechain is what the compressor listens to. So you can think of it that way. There's two things going through the compressor, two signals. The one is the one that the compressor actually treats like that it like compresses, and the other signal is what it listens to and then applies that information to the signal that it processes. And that one, what the compressor listens to, is called the sidechain. So sometimes they are the same thing, but sometimes they are not. So if you manipulate the sidechain, it means that the compressor doesn't hear as much of the low end. If you filter the low end, so the compressor thinks there's less low end and therefore doesn't react as much to those peaks in the low end. They're still there because the actual signal has the low end, but the sidechain that the compression behavior is based on doesn't have as much low end, if that makes sense. So the compressor is hearing less than there actually is and that therefore behaves differently.

Malcom: 28:10

Yeah, you manipulate that sidechain.

Benedikt: 28:11

You can do all kinds of things.

Malcom: 28:13

It's important to clarify that it's not filtering your low end out of what you're hearing.

Benedikt: 28:17

Yeah, exactly.

Malcom: 28:18

It's just changing how it reacts. So that's being left alone. And yeah, that is built into a lot of modern plugins. These days I'm bus compressors, which is really really handy because I agree it generally sounds better if you open that up a little bit and compressors tend to react more to low end information. So, as Benny kind of mentioned there, if you've got a kick and a snare, the kick seems to throw it way further than the snare might. I mean it's going to be very dependent on your leveling and stuff like that balancing, but it just does seem to go that way. So you kind of have to find a way to balance this out and I find that if I can tell my compressor to ignore my kick a little bit, there's less noticeable pump going on.

Benedikt: 29:05

Yeah, agreed, agreed. And also, as I said, I can just compress harder in general and I also find there's a better balance between kick and snare compression, sort of in the mix bus. Just the overall groove is better for me most of the time. There's the odd mix where the snare is really loud and the compressor does more to the snare anyways, or there's a mix maybe where the low end is so thick that I actually want it to be tighter and then I remove the side chain.

Malcom: 29:33

That totally happens.

Benedikt: 29:35

Compression yeah, compression, that's just cool and it just gets out of control if you use the filter.

Malcom: 29:40

But on most mixes I love the side chain thing and yeah, yeah, and I want to keep circling back to safe settings, because I think this is one of the areas where we really want people to start at a certain spot and that is like slow attack, fast release, two to four, three if you got it at ratio, and now throwing the side chain filter to like 60 to 70 Hertz. That's kind of where I'm doing. Is that where you're at Benny, 60-70 Hertz.

Benedikt: 30:10

Yeah, yeah, 65 is actually my life, 65 is the setting for me.

Malcom: 30:16

Yeah, so that's like our recommended.

Benedikt: 30:19

this won't screw you up settings, yeah yeah, because my hardware thing that I really love it's the C1 LA by Smart Research and this one has 65, 130 or 200 something I can't read it from here and I just experimented with those and 65 is the one that I always ended up using. And because I knew it so well, when I tried to transfer what I'm hearing here into like a plug-in in the box, I just did 65 and it worked as well. Nice yeah.

Malcom: 30:52

I want to just reiterate that we're recommending those safe settings because a lot of our episodes we recommend going for Just like try and get the sound you actually want with like a tartones and stuff like that. But this is one area where I really recommend starting safe until you really feel confident and then branching out Experiment. When it doesn't matter, like nobody's gonna hear it, go for it. But if it's important, start here and slowly work your way up because, like we've said, you're stuck with whatever you set up here, so if you get it wrong your mix will not work out. And Benny recommended like don't use 1176s or like a distress or an adjuvant mix bus compressor. And you absolutely can. People definitely have had great results with that. But you'll probably do a terrible job. If you have no experience doing this, it'll go awful yeah.

Benedikt: 31:42

And you might not even realize, because it can be subtle, especially if you're not, if you don't have like the experience ear yet, and you think it's great, and then maybe you send it to mastering and then, after mastering, all the distortion that you accidentally added becomes audible now and you know it's like usually way too much saturation when you use a plugin like that, unless it's intentional and that you have to learn how to hear that actually.

Malcom: 32:05

So yeah, absolutely, it's just a tricky thing. So yeah, I just wanted to reiterate that anything goes, just like all parts of audio. But if we can help you have help, keep you safe and have like a less frustrating results, start, start with those recommended settings.

Benedikt: 32:23

Yeah, and one recommendation, also in the same, on the same topic, is of like simplicity and making it easy for yourself is I wouldn't start using, I wouldn't start experimenting with Mixbus compression using a multi band to multi band compressor. I know some people do that. I know some people. I've got messages from people who said like, yeah, I've seen so and so use a multi band compressor on the Mixbus. And so I'm doing that now and I'm like learn one like the single band standard Mixbus compressor first and only if you really know why you want to use a multi band tool, do that. So in case you really feel like you have to compress the mid range differently from the low end or whatever, then of course do it. But just because you've seen someone else do it, I wouldn't recommend it because you can really mess things up with a multi band compressor. It's not something you have to do. I almost never use it. I've done it for a while, but in a very subtle way and in addition to the single band. I don't do it anymore, interestingly enough. So you don't have to do it, absolutely not. It's way harder to get right and there's a lot of potential mistakes that you can make. So I wouldn't recommend that unless you really know what you're doing. But I would absolutely start with a single band standard bus compressor.

Malcom: 33:35

Yeah, that's great advice. I use one on occasion as well, but it's, like you said, always to solve a specific problem. It's not a blanket thing like a bus compressor is.

Benedikt: 33:46

Yeah, exactly Now. Next question can I mix without a mixed bus compressor? Is that possible? Do I need one?

Malcom: 33:55

Legend says yes, mythical tales being done, apparently? Yeah, in theory, why not? Right, you can compress every individual track, but like they just don't react together, then, and I just don't see why you would.

Benedikt: 34:15

I want to add because you said that now you still compress every individual track or not everyone but like your individual tracks when they need it. The fact that you have a mixed bus compressor doesn't mean you now can't compress individual tracks anymore. So we do both whatever the song needs, but like because that could. You know someone could misunderstand that. But yeah, I think you absolutely can mix without a mixed bus compressor. I know that some people do it. I think it's still worth learning it and like hearing the difference for yourself. For me, there's no way of getting the same results without one. As you said, malcolm, things don't interact and it's like not the same kind of glue. Some people are have success with like a multi bus setup instead of a mixed bus compressor. I do both in a way. I have multiple buses with bus compressors and then my mixed bus with a bus compressor. So you know you can get fancy after you know how it works. But I would start first with just one on the mixed bus and at some point you can create your own version of that. But yeah, to answer the question, you can mix without a mixed bus compressor. In fact, I think if you're using an external mastering engineer and you don't know how to like, I mean, I would still experiment with it and just be, you know, a little careful. And then what I would do is I would like have someone master the song and I would send them two versions. I would send them the one with the mixed bus compressor on it that you liked, and if you're not entirely sure if that was good, what you did there, just tell the mastering engineer hey, here's a second version without the mixed bus compression but I use, and here's the settings that I use, so he can like or she can like, mimic or recreate what you've done if it works, or find a better solution if it doesn't work. And that's how I would approach it. And that way you learn a lot about it too. Like, mastering a song is not really expensive. So if you just do it just for a learning experience and you hire someone for like 80 bucks, 100 bucks, whatever, like a really good mastering engineer, if you do that and send them two versions and tell them your settings, you'll learn something and you'll get the best results. And if you do that a couple of times, I'm sure you will get the hang of it Totally.

Malcom: 36:19

Yeah, it's. It's a great learning experience. As you said, it's pretty darn affordable. Would recommend pro tip. Take a screenshot of the plugin that you're removing, so like you can just show them that that could be handy because they might have that same plugin even then, which is kind of a cool way to go about it. I got an interesting question for you, benny Do you consider the mixed bus compressor as you're tracking? So are you making decisions about what you're recording, knowing that there's going to be a bus compressor later? No, I don't actually.

Benedikt: 36:51

No, I don't.

Malcom: 36:52

Me neither, no, no. And I think that's actually the correct way to go, because I think that is the equivalent of fix it in the mix.

Benedikt: 37:00

You know, like it is like, oh, it'll get better once there's a bus compressor, and never make that decision, no, no you're totally right, and this comes down to me having and you two, I think, having a pretty systematic approach in the process of how we do things and to be like the mixed bus compression is part of mixing and I don't even think about that stuff when I'm tracking. I mean, I might do some mixing on the fly just to get a feel for things like on individual tracks, and then I might deactivate later and start the mix all over again. I do things like that just to get results quickly, and you know. But the mix bus is not part of that. This is really part of mixing for me, and the first time I use it is after an initial quick balance, rough balance, sort of that I got so, when I got a good balance going, that I can listen to the entire song and I maybe remove some resonances or a cleanup sort of phase. You know that is the moment where I enable the bus compression usually so to finalize basically my gain structure throughout the whole mix, including the mix bus, and then from there I just leave it on and then I start compressing and tweaking individual tracks and sweetening them. That's my process. So, and before that balancing or even doing tracking, I don't worry about the mix bus compressor at all.

Malcom: 38:10

Yeah, yeah, I was saying that just like because our audience is mostly bands recording themselves, of course, and I just want to kind of describe that workflow, for, yeah, when you're making your record, when you're in tracking, have no consideration for what the mix bus is, because you have no idea what that compressor will be, or what it's going to be doing, or what it'll need to be doing, because you haven't created the tracks yet.

Benedikt: 38:31

Yeah, exactly, it's good you mentioned that, because I also know that a lot of people work from templates, myself included, and, for example, in my coaching program. I just gave out my Cubase template with, and I modified it to have stock plugins only. So I took my current template, removed all the fancy stuff and replaced it with stock plugins and gave it to a great student. That's a great idea, by the way, yeah and it was interesting process too, like finding alternatives for certain things or, like you know, especially the saturation color things. It's doable. It's not that easy, but I have to stack a few of the stock things to get similar results. You know from my other. You know it was a cool process. But I gave that to people and I just realized that if you use this template now and you start tracking into that template, make sure that you know you don't worry about the mix bus. You turn these plugins off and only have on what you really need. You can turn them on later in the process or you can do what I do. I just have different templates so I have the same. I created my big, you know, mix template that has everything, and then I created it, I duplicated it and on the duplicate that's my tracking template I removed everything that's not relevant to tracking and so I reduced it down to just a couple of things that I want, you know, easy access to, like reverbs or delays or whatever for the monitoring. But the stuff that I don't do anyways in tracking I just remove. That makes the session more, you know, easier on the CPU and easier to handle, and so I have two versions of that and you, as a guest, you do that too, because I know that some people will just open my mix template and start tracking into that and maybe have all the plugins active. So don't do that.

Malcom: 40:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very wise advice.

Benedikt: 40:03

All right. That being said, my template is like the starting points. The settings in my template are doing nothing anyways. It's not that I start from a template that has a bunch of processing on it. It's all optional and the starting point is, even if the plugins are on, they shouldn't be doing much or anything at all. So it's less risk there, but still turn it off when in doubt.

Malcom: 40:22

Right right, all right. So I think the next taboo thing to ask is is this mastering? Yeah, totally Because it is a great area right when, like mastering, you're working with just one file and your Mixbus is just one file, essentially, that's where all the tracks are summed, so it is essentially the equivalent to a mastering chain. But what's your thoughts on that, penny?

Benedikt: 40:47

My thoughts are that, no, it is not mastering, and I have a very clear I've thought about that a lot and where I draw the line is mastering an entire album has an additional step always that includes like sequencing and specific things to the entire record. But if we're talking about an individual song that I mix and master, where sequencing and that stuff is not part of the thing we need to do, then if I mix and master and I do it in the same session, which I often do I still consider that just mixing. It's finished and I did the mastering in a way as well. But actually I've just mixed it. If I do it in the same session, because all I'm trying to do is make the song sound as good as it possibly can, doing whatever I can do to achieve that, and those to me, are mixing decisions. Whenever there is a separate session where I just grab the mix, pull it into the new session and started with a fresh perspective, that is mastering to me. I sometimes do that too, because I sometimes I'm too close to my mix, I spend too much time on it, I can't really finish it at this point, so I have to print the mix, let it sit there and then do the mastering later, or when someone else sends me this stuff just to master, then it's also mastering. But I think as soon as someone else or the same person is opening a dedicated mastering session to work only on the finished mix and do it with a mastering mindset, perspective and everything that is mastering to me. And if it happens in the mixing session, whatever you do on your master bus, I just consider that mixing, because you just don't stop until it's done, whatever you need to do. And so if someone yeah, that's my thing. So I think if you are doing everything yourself and you just finish your mix, it's mixed. Not, you didn't do a separate mastering session. It might be finalized and everything, but that's not mastering to me.

Malcom: 42:28

Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with everything you said, and I would also say that the difference is also that when we're using a mix bus compressor, we're using it as something that's going to dictate the decisions we're making on the multi-track in the mixing mindset right. Where that isn't possible, if it's in its own session, whatever bus compressor, we then throw on in a mastering signal like so we've exported the wave into a mastering session, as Benny described, and now we choose to. You don't have to, but you might choose to use another bus compressor in that mastering stage. You can't then go and change a multi-track decision. You can't go lower the snare mic because of what that compressor is doing. That option's gone. So that is mastering versus mixing. They're different.

Benedikt: 43:10

Yeah, because the definition of mastering and it has changed over the years. But like, originally it was called pre-mastering because the job was to transfer from the master. It was also called master tape. But to transfer from the tape that the mix was on onto whatever final medium is going to be released, could be vinyl, could be cassette tape or whatever CDs later. You know all these things. That was the job and that was so in the beginning. It was just a transfer sort of thing and that was called mastering. And then when so usually the cutting engineer who would take the tape and put it onto the vinyl did the mastering, and then later, when vinyl was not a thing anymore, it now is again sort of. But like when digital formats came along and there was no technical, you know, there was there's no transfer to a CD sort of necessary. You just take the digital file, put it on the CD and it stays exactly the same. Basically there was still the transfer process, was still called mastering, and now the actual mastering that changed part of the sonics and how it all sounds together and stuff that was then called pre-mastering and it became sort of a different job and then people started calling that mastering. Anyway, the definition kind of always has been taking the mix and making it work on whatever medium it's going to be released on, make sure that it sounds good everywhere, regardless of the system or the medium, make sure that it transfers well, and that is a dedicated step. That is mastering, someone else doing final quality control, and we have an entire episode on that, and so that's why I consider that mastering. And, as you said, malcolm, if it, if there, if you can still make changes to the mix and if the decisions on your mix bus affect what you do on your individual tracks, that's just part of mixing, and if you only focused on the thing as a whole and about how it translates, then it's mastering. Basically, yeah, cool. This is also a great segue into the last point here, which is the mix bus. Compression is, at least for me, is not about like making the track loud. It helps with that. So it's a little bit of added compression, which usually gives you a little more headroom and it makes it a little more dense and it will get louder probably by doing that, but it's not why I do it. I don't try to get it loud with my mix bus compressor. That's a different thing. That's either the final part of like the mixing, mastering hybrid thing in one session or it's an actual mastering job where you use different tools for that. You use different types of compressors and clippers and limiters to achieve that, and also mixing decisions are a big part of like how loud something can actually be. There's a loudness potential to every mix. It's a lot about balance and EQ as well, but the mix bus compressor to me is not about loudness. It helps, but that's not the goal. I'm not looking at like loves or whatever when I'm doing mix bus compression.

Malcom: 45:52

Yeah, I agree, but I also use it for loudness. Ok, yeah, I mean yeah, that's why. I guess. Yeah, yeah, but you're like right, I think when I'm choosing it, it has nothing to do with loudness. No, I think I want to modify what I just said to agree more fully with you in that I love that it has the side effect of loudness. Yeah, but it is. Loudness plays pretty much zero role in my decision when setting up a mix bus compressor. It's all about just the mix which you know. Maybe loudness is part of that actually, but it's. That's not really the focus.

Benedikt: 46:26

Yeah, and it's probably doing more in terms of loudness for you than for me because of the settings that you described earlier, which is interesting because if I'm using my the sort of standard safe settings with like 30 millisecond attack, that means the snare just goes through and it gets punchy. It can even be sometimes, I even sometimes things end up being less loud because there's more transient after doing like, I have to compensate for that or clip things because of that. So for me I let a lot of the transient through and it doesn't really tame that, which means I'm not really getting any loudness benefits or like just subtle ones. However, if you use a more aggressive, quicker compressor, like Malcolm does on the instrument bus, then you probably tame those transients with the mix bus compressor already, which gives you more headroom, you can turn it up more and there you have like an added like two to three, four, whatever it is, of loudness. Because if you're mixed bus compression because it's almost like a limiter at this point right, yeah, you got it. You got it Cool. Yeah, I think that's part of it. I'm interesting. I'm interested, though, malcolm, if you bypass your mix bus compressor or your instrument sort of bus compressor with the vocals and vocals are typically like the loudest thing in a mix, like or next to the snare or maybe after the snare, but one of the loudest things in the mix how, like I mean, you get loudness on your instrument bus, but then there's still the vocals on top of that, and how does that all work? And how do you make, how do you blend the vocals with the rest?

Malcom: 47:50

Then, if that right, yeah, I mean, there's just another bus compressor.

Benedikt: 47:54

Yeah, that just goes a little less and is a little more conservative right.

Malcom: 47:57

Yeah, yeah, but I find that it's just easier to get it to agree with those vocals than trying to shove it all through one. Generally, I mean, like it's not an every time thing, but that has been pretty consistent for me for a while now that I'm just getting having an easier time getting the vocal where I want, fighting less with my compressor because of that, because the compressor is not working so hard.

Benedikt: 48:20

Yeah, I agree actually and I've done it a couple of times too that sort of running setup when, whenever I really want the vocal to just stay upfront and like sort of on top of the mix. It depends on the genre or what the band wants, but that is the way to achieve that and sometimes, if you're sending it all into the bus compressor, including the vocals, no matter how loud you turn them up or no matter what you do, there's still the occasional part where the vocal gets buried a little bit or something else steps onto the vocal or the vocal pushes something else back and it never really sits on top of the mix really upfront all the time. And if that's what you want it's like this rock solid lead vocal, no matter what then that what you do is the way to go there and I've done it a couple of times.

Malcom: 48:58

Yeah, here is one thing that a lot of people most people that are higher in a mixer don't understand about revisions. When you ask for a Vocal up 1db, if I grab the vocal and turn it up 1db, it doesn't get 1db louder because there's a compressor in the way that is saying no, so it should get louder or or something should happen. But it's not doing exactly what you think it is doing and A good mixer is gonna actually probably go about that in some other way. Yeah, make it seem 1db louder, but what I will say is that that setup of having the instrument compressor and then a lighter mix bus compressor let's that translate a little bit more. When I turn up my vocal Channel just with the like the fader, it gets more loud than it would have if it was fighting with everything else to that same compressor.

Benedikt: 49:53

Very true, very, very true. And and not only does the vocal not get exactly 1db louder, something else might get half a db quieter because of that or whatever. You know it's like all these side effects if things go into the same compressor.

Malcom: 50:05

So yeah, yeah, it made compress, it made it made revisions easier.

Benedikt: 50:12

Yeah, totally, totally. I agree. That's a great idea. Actually, I for some reason it's not my default every every time I did it and made sense and it worked. Maybe I should try and experiment with that more often. Yeah, I want to shout out machine who's?

Malcom: 50:24

like such a good mixer. Yeah, his Lamu God mixes was definitely like. Oh, I like that technique. Because he's drums and guitars are in their own world, and then he can do whatever he wants with vocals on top of it.

Benedikt: 50:37

Yeah, and he not only does the outside vocal thing, he also does the kick outside things sort of he also.

Malcom: 50:43

Yeah, which is even a step further right, Like yeah, that's that's. That's even further removed from what I'm doing.

Benedikt: 50:50

But which means he doesn't send the kick to the bus. Compressors of the kick and the vocal sort of go like bypass the bus Compressor and and then everything else is getting compressed together and the kick and the vocals sort of go on top of that to have less pumping. And you know, you can do whatever you want there. I just feel like my, my template and please watch the like. I think it was two weeks ago so when I did my my template update episode. You can watch that on YouTube and I walk you through my entire mixing template. I feel like my template is already complex enough that I don't want to add an additional layer of complexity there. That's probably the reason why I haven't done it so far, but I maybe I should try and do that and and I want to say that I know for a fact that a lot of people listening to this right now Feel like it's way above their head. It's like way too complex and way too complicated. All the things that we've mentioned on this episode, all the details, and I get that. The thing is you have to start simple. You can basically ignore all those fancy things for now. I think and I I Really think, yeah, how should I say that I this? This is a good example, actually a good example episode, of why it pays off to hire someone to mix a song for you when you're starting out, at least once, just for you know, just to see what they can do and just to maybe also for the learning experience. Maybe you get some feedback, maybe you get some advice. It depends on the mix Are you using, but it just goes to show how Complex mixing actually is and all the things you need to take into account, all the things you need to Think about how everything sort of affects everything and how, if you change one thing, everything else changes. This is actually a really good example episode of why that is a good idea, and I know that so many people are mixing themselves and not getting good results because mixing is damn hard and it, you know, it takes experience and you can definitely learn it, and I do that with my coaching students all the time. But it takes time, it takes experience and there's many more things to consider than you probably think right now, and so the two things that I want to leave you with is a don't over complicate it in the beginning. Just start with the simplest version of a bus compressor, you can get access to and and use very basic safe settings to begin with before you do anything fancy. And the second one is maybe or definitely, as long as you're not really, as long as you don't really know what you're doing, hire someone else at least a mastering engineer and probably also mixing engineer, and and then compare your work to theirs and once you get there and are confident, then you can do it yourself. I think that's the best way to learn.

Malcom: 53:20

Yeah, like we don't want to scare people because no, like we wouldn't be doing this episode if we didn't think you can learn it, but like it is mighty complicated, as you just heard through this whole episode, but this is also like a fundamental basic thing.

Benedikt: 53:37

This is a fundamental skill for mixing and not that complicated in the big scheme of being a professional it sounds complicated, but once you get the all the core concepts that are underneath this, once you understand those, it's not complicated at all. I just know that people have like knowledge gaps in like core areas of audio production and if you have those it's gonna be hard to understand this whole concept absolutely, and what I'm saying is that, like, I think it actually underlines how complicated mixing is, because this is a fundamental.

Malcom: 54:07

The other stuff is kind of crazy.

Benedikt: 54:11

You can learn it. It just takes time and patience, like so many things in life. It's just, it's a job that people learn over decades and and it's you always improve, you always get better. You're never quite there. It takes long until you have that first really professional sounding mix, and that's totally normal and fine. And you take whatever like, take whatever shortcut you can take. It starts with free stuff, like this podcast, to like courses, to coaching, like we offer, to just practicing a lot of course, getting finding mentors, hiring external mixing engineers. Take whatever shortcut you can afford and and you want to take and it will definitely speed up your learning process. And if you don't do that, if you want to do everything on your own, without help and completely by yourself, just expect it to take years, because that's what happens inevitably.

Malcom: 54:53

Yeah, yeah. Learning is sucking until you don't. So yeah, can we put photos in the show notes? Is that a thing?

Benedikt: 55:00

yeah, we can, wayne. Yeah, can you do that?

Malcom: 55:02

Sure probably right, we're getting a photo of just a like an SSL style compressor with those settings. Kind of clear would be, I think, really helpful people you go check.

Benedikt: 55:10

Awesome, yeah, that would be great. By the way, shout out to Wayne. We know I don't mention him often enough. Actually, wayne Colson is the man who edits and mixes this podcast. He's awesome. He took this over from Thomas at some point, our previous editor. Now Wayne is doing it. Wayne is also editing the YouTube videos and the coaching videos. He actually just they combined their superpowers recently and joined sort of forces. Thomas made created a YouTube video on drums that Wayne then edited, and I wasn't involved in the process at all that just at some point there was a video, it was done. It was fantastic. So, yeah, shout out to those two and thank you, wayne, for everything you're doing. You're amazing and I can't wait to meet you in person, by the way, because Wayne is another one of those who that I've been working with for quite a while now and never met in person.

Malcom: 55:54

So yeah, yeah, I'm excited to meet that. Thomas and Wayne and Hamburg for studio zine. That's gonna be fun. Yeah, yeah, wait, hold on studio zene, zene. It's like a.

Benedikt: 56:07

This is one of the harder German words to pronounce studio Sene. Yeah, see me Got it. Yeah, studio scene is fine. Everyone knows what it's called. So, yeah, I keep trying. All right, so let's wrap it up then. I think that's it right. If you have any questions, as always about this topic, let us know we can. We happy to answer those, of course, and, as always, also feel free to join our community and Facebook, the surf recording band comm slash community. We've seen it. Quite a few new people in there the last couple of weeks, so go there, join us and yeah, let us know if there's anything you want us to add to this?

Malcom: 56:46

Definitely yeah. Thanks everyone for listening and see you next week, see you next week.

Benedikt: 56:51

Bye.