Work fast. If you're working fast, you get the idea and the inspiration down. That's more important than anything else. And I don't mean work fast like ignore it when you made a mistake. I don't mean that Just don't be ridiculously amal about everything and go through everything a thousand times.

This is the Self Recording Band Podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own wherever you are DIY style, let's go. Hello and welcome to the Self Recording Band Podcast. I'm your host, benedikt Ein. If you're new to the show, welcome. If you're already a listener, welcome back Stoke to have you. If you discovered this on YouTube, please know that this is an audio podcast as well, so you can listen on Spotify, apple Podcasts and all the platforms wherever you consume podcasts. So I just have to say that, because some people are not aware of that, and vice versa, there's also a video version of that. Now, today I got a very special episode. It's not Malcolm and myself, as usual. I got a guest today and the guest is Warren Hewart. You might know Warren because you know. There's many things, many reasons to know Warren Like. He's worked with bands like Aerosmith, ace Freely, the Fray Ramones, james Blunt, kobe Collay the list goes on and on and you might also know him from his work with Produce Like a Pro or Pro Mix Academy. These are platforms that Warren founded and these incredible resources for people who want to learn how to record and mix music. So I'm beyond excited to have him on the show today, and I'm very, very thankful that you took the time to do this. So welcome Warren Hewart to the show.

I bet you are very, very kind. I'm just another guy doing what we do, you know making music, recording music. Very, very blessed to be able to do it Awesome.

Thank you so much. Yeah, we appreciate it. The community really, really worked forward to this. Oh, yeah, it did. Wow, yeah, that's.

I've just been speaking at a school. Actually I just did a couple of speaking events at a school. It's kind of the industry, how to sort of navigate it and make money and all that kind of stuff.

All right, good, good. The first person to put on a jacket for our show is. I appreciate that.

Oh, there you go. I feel so special Awesome.

So we got a ton of questions from our community because they were excited for this episode. But we'll get to those later. Oh, great, but let's go to those later. Great questions Before we do that. I don't really think we need to do like the whole backstory kind of thing with, because, honestly, our community, most people, would probably know a little bit about you, but still is there one thing that most people don't know or people never ask on interviews, like one backstory sort of thing.

That is not the obvious stuff. Yeah, exactly, there is actually something I only really started thinking about. So I talk often about being 16 and leaving home. My left time was 16, I joined a band doing like funk covers and other kind of stuff. I always joke that Nile Rogers gave me my career because I learned all the sister sledge and chic songs and huge Nile Rogers fan yet to interview him. So, Nile, if you're listening, I really want to interview you. So people know that I talk about that. So I was a professional musician right from the age of 16. And I always talk about how was the annoying guy in the band that when we were making records would tap the engineer on the shoulder and ask silly questions? And then I always did the demos for my bands and did use four track and eight track and eight acts and then DAWs etc. So I talk about all that stuff. What I often forget to mention is that I used to DJ. Oh, really, yeah, I DJed. And I did dance music as well. Oh, wow, I just didn't get particularly successful at it. But when I came to America in the mid 90s I actually got gigs doing hair conferences, like DJing, and playing like British dance music before dance music really happened out here European dance music, as you know, which had been around forever. To be honest, being German, a Deutsch, you know that Germany, Deutschland, was one of the first countries in the world to really embrace electronic music. You've got Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk and Neue and all these incredible bands and the British music of the late 70s Depeche Mode and Joy Division. Of course New Order all stole lovingly but stole from bands like Neue. Neue, for instance, the intro to Love or Terrorist Apart is very, very close to a Neue song. And yeah, I actually just was just speaking at a school and we were talking about origins of music and we were talking about how to look back and make sure you have really good taste and listen to stuff. And I used an example of Neue. Wave in Britain was essentially Disco and German synth pop. I mean, that's Depeche Mode, that's New Order, it's German synth pop with Disco, and even some of the Disco stuff that people don't realize actually has its origins in Deutschland, you know, in Germany, because of course you know I Feel Love was recorded in Berlin, wasn't it? I think so yeah, yeah. So, which is one of the most seminal, most, one of the most important songs of all time. I mean, it's a very famous story of Eno hearing Donna Summer for the first time and calling David Bowie and saying this is the future of music. Hence why Bowie and Iggy and all those guys moved to Berlin and lived there and recorded you know Heroes very famously, of course, at Hansa, where we've been and recorded and did a masterclass and also did a studio tour. So I've always had a very, very, incredibly strong affinity for Germany. I actually went to Berlin when I was 17 and it was just before the war came down. Oh, and we had to. You got on a train and you the guards would change when you get into East Germany and the guards would come on and they'd have their clash the cops and they would. They would get your passport and they'd hold it up to your face like this and they would lean in and so the muzzle would be like right here, like full kind of intimidation, pretty crazy. Once you got into Berlin, it was like crazy. If you meet anybody I don't know if you have family or friends that lived in Berlin in the late 80s they'll tell you it was insane, absolutely crazy city, I don't, but I heard stories like that from people.

So, yeah, I can only, I can only imagine, yeah.

And to this day, it's still one of the best music cities in the world. It is for sure.

It is actually many people, it's a kind of thing. Many of my friends, people from where I live. I live in a pretty remote area in Bavaria Right, it's the opposite of like a music city and many people, many of my friends, moved to Berlin just because of that, especially like in the people in the electronic music world. But like yeah, berlin is sort of the destination in Germany for people like that, and super booth is so much fun If you have people.

I know. I know we're here. Obviously, studio Zayn is coming up where we'll be speaking. If you're into electronic music, you have to go to super booth. It is so much fun.

Awesome, I didn't expect all of that, but that's super interesting, most of all because I always thought of you as like the rock producer, maybe. I didn't even know the whole electronic sort of background and that you you know everything you just said. Like that was actually new to me and I would have. Honestly, I would have asked a question about other genres and since you've interviewed Jason Joshua on your show, I think, and you're going to do a panel with him at Studio Senior Event, and so I was actually going to ask about your you know how much you know, experience or work you've done in other genres and what else besides rock you actually like and all of that. But what you just said, their answers that question.

You do a lot more than just rock, so yeah, I feel blessed, you know, because we, because of those experiences growing up, you know, playing funk, band and doing covers. You know, I don't know if there's the opportunity now, because when I was a teenager there was still. It wasn't as good as it was in the 60s and 70s, but it was still the 80s, when I was a teenager, in early 90s, there were a lot of clubs and clubs that you could go in and you could just play covers music. So you could, you know, and that was amazing and it's a great way as a musician to develop your ear to play other people's songs. You know, learn those songs, sing harmonies not always very good at singing, you know, I was the last resort with the harmonies, but you know it's a good way to sort of learn production chops, because you get inside of a song and you have to take maybe your three or four piece band and make them sound like a full production. So I think that's a real baptism of fire. If you get an opportunity as a producer and you play instruments, I mean it's pretty awesome to get out there and do that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, totally, which is a great segue into another question that I had. I was following produced like a pro since the almost at the beginning, I'd say. Basically it was one of the main things that I used to learn from and that I still do, and so I enjoyed, and also just the interviews with people you do there and like the behind the scenes stuff. I just always enjoyed that. And one thing that I admired a lot was your. You know, you are such a great guitar player and such a great musician, not just producer, engineer, and I was always. And so, yeah, absolutely it's true, and what I was always wondering is how is it possible to find the time to get like so good on an instrument but also be like a busy producer and engineer and be good at that and then build, you know, for just like a pro and all of that? I'm just asking because a lot of people can play instruments when they're producers, but you are really, really good and that takes practice, obviously. So how do you do that? Because I struggle with that a lot.

Well, I think I'm looking around on the guitar. Well, to look around for a guitar, because for me, yeah, when I was a kid, when I was like 16 years old, and first started playing I learned a little later but I had a baptism of fire I moved to the north of England and in the north where all the clubs, where there was still like lots of clubs to play, I befriended a guy called Olly Orcock who was this kind of local hero in a town called Carlisle and he just kind of showed me things. Not only did he show me things that got my playing better, but one of the things he did was, in part, really good taste. I love talking about this. Olly said to me he goes, if you want to be a great rhythm guitar player, like pop rock rhythm guitar player, listen to John Lennon. John Lennon was one of the tightest, best feel acoustic, you know, sorry, rhythm guitar players. So I listened and learned a lot and learned a lot of Beatles songs. Then he said to me if you want to play with feel and a little bit of left of center, listen to Jeff Beck. Listen to how he can just kind of like play. Now you make him. Eric Gwennon got me a guitar. Oh awesome, thank you, eric. So he said, you know, listen to Jeff Beck. And then he said, for the vibrato and feel, pull costs off. Just a kind of you know, that kind of yeah. And so what it imparted a lot of like, oh then, legato, left hand tenine, all that stuff was Aaron Holtzworth. And then he said you want to get your right hand together? Two guys, alder Miehler, all that kind of stuff, alder Miehler actually it was mainly Alder Miehler that he was pushing me towards. So the point is is like he gave me a great lesson in listening to incredible musicians and that was a wonderful, wonderful thing. And so I got to be a pretty good guitar player early on in my career. So when I started producing and engineering and I was always that guy that would always be recording my own bands that I was in. But when I got to that stage, guitar playing was kind of in my blood and when I'm working I always have a guitar on me because I want to know the song and I'm lazy, I don't chart. I've never charted a song in my life. But if it's recording and the bands play, I've already worked out the rhythm part, the lead part, I'll have got the. That's the vocal melody. I've already done it, so I'll already know it's. I'll know what the harmony is. So to me, a guitar is an extension of my, it's a tool of my trade. So if I, when we come to do the harmonies, I'll already know there's gonna be, I'll know the harmony I want on that part. If I have to put down a part, replay the bass line or the electric you know rhythm part or whatever it is, or acoustic or whatever it is, I've already, it's already in my brain. So to me, a guitar is part of what I do and so that's enabled me to keep, even though I don't sit there eight hours a day anymore. Yeah, doing all these kinds of exercises, it's just kind of imparted in me and I've learned through the years. For anybody who's interested in guitar playing stuff is if I'm only gonna play for half an hour, 20 minutes a day, to just concentrate on doing strength and articulation exercises rather than picking up a guitar and going, I'll go, I'll go. So this will be like 20 minutes of just kind of like playing these chromatic runs and stuff like that, with alternating picking and stuff like that and also building in stretch exercise. So this is maybe If all I play guitar today, that's probably all I'll do. So that kind of answers it. So, even though, even though I'm not playing that much as I would want, I'm concentrating on only doing there's a lot of people talking about that Scott DeVy and the bass player. He did a really good video recently. He's a good friend. I haven't spoken to him in a while. So, scott, if you're watching hello and he did a thing about not noodling it's fun to noodle, but if you can only play for a few minutes a day, make sure you're doing something that keeps your articulation together, and I think that's very important. So that's a long answer, but that's pretty much what I would suggest. If you want to keep your playing up, just make sure you're doing things that challenge you so complicated kind of patterns on picking and right hand and you're left-handed at the same time, with some stretch exercises, and it means that when I do have to play I can just pick it up and I can warm up pretty quickly.

Awesome, man, that was such a good answer. I was hoping for that. That's, unfortunately, probably stuff that people don't want to hear. You know that they have to do this because a lot of people love to noodle, but it's the truth. It's you got to use the time effectively that you have and I'm going to take that too hard too, because I've always played instruments. But I struggle when I'm mixing all the time and doing all kinds of things. I sometimes don't play an instrument in days and it's hard to stay good or to get better. But yeah, probably just do the right things when you play. That's good, yeah.

I mean, the two things I'll do if I'm only playing for 20 minutes are the chromatic runs with the stretches and the alternating pick up, pick up, picking and then things like arpeggios. I just do this open string, just playing sevenths, and with open strings it's actually always a little bit harder than when you're playing. You can do the big kind of ones like that. Actually it's far easier than play. So then I'm practicing multiple things. I'm doing chromatic runs with stretches for my fingers, alternating picking on the right hand with string skipping and then really big, wide kind of movements from my right hand on arpeggios. So I pretty much covered the bass, as I suppose the only other thing I could do would probably be to do one of those kind of Joe Pass kind of Exercise is where he, yeah, just to kind of get your Keep your right hand, rhythm playing and chordal shapes. I think if I was to incorporate that into my practice routine, probably in 20 minutes I could probably focus as much as I would for noodling for like two and three hours.

Wow, thank you so much, man. That's super helpful. And also I think I don't know if you agree, but maybe some people should focus, actually spend more time on the playing than on the technical side of things. I have the impression I mean, there's very amazing musicians these days as well, of course but sometimes I get the impression that a lot of people focus so much on the production side of things now because it's so available, and they spend a lot of time in front of the computer when sometimes the records might actually benefit from just better playing, or, you know, tighter playing, better writing, better arrangements, that sort of thing, because I think that that is still the most important thing, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think ultimately, you know, as a Producer and a musician, I mean the song comes first and so how do you, how do you support the song? And, like I said, for me it's like I'm always, I'm in the song, I'm playing along, you know I'm whatever's going on, I'm usually sitting there, you know, whatever the chord sequences I'm playing along, I've probably coming up with, coming up with guitar line ideas, you know, that are working alongside of it. I'm thinking of things. I just like to be inspired and I suppose, honestly, guys and girls, I love music. So any opportunity I can do to be involved in the song and the production that's left to center an interest. This is not just like some boring job where I sit there and go oh, you know, I suppose we have to make the record now, that's just it. And if that's where you get to in life, do something else. You know you should never. You should never do music to make money. It should be, it should be you make money as a consequence. Now, obviously you need smart business acumen and stuff to do that, but as much as you possibly can and it's difficult in an industry that's, you know, dominated by, by people being very loud. I mean, this is going to be on YouTube. It's like, yeah, 99.99% of the people that do YouTube and have recording channels have never actually recorded, or they or they just record Just to sell courses on things, and it's tough, you know. So it's a very weird kind of dynamic. Yeah, you know that that being good on camera is the most important thing for a YouTube channel, but actual proper knowledge and and skills and success in your, in your industry, is not that important and I think that, as long as you're doing it because you love it, yeah, you're gonna do. Okay, you're gonna do it. And I really do think that and I have so many Examples of people that are successful that don't fit in any stereotypes and I think I have more of those than the ones that fit in the stereotypes, you know, yeah, that's true.

That's so true. What, what do you think like for the self recording bands? I mean, we call it the self recording band podcast, so this is for people who record themselves and what, what, what do you think Is the biggest difference? Or is there maybe one thing that people should keep in mind that is different from when you, like, produce your own record and you mix your own songs, versus working with a producer going to a studio and get your songs produced there, like. Is there one thing that that's a Big difference in in mindset, or in the different in the approach? Or one thing to be aware of a pitfall like the number one thing, sort of?

I think I can. I'll speak from my specific experience about recording recording myself which we we haven't done enough of recently, eric have we we haven't done. I think there was a period about three or four years ago where I would have Eric open up a session and I would come up with some cool guitar riff and a song idea and we'd put it down. We haven't done that in a while. We tend to record stuff now Specifically for a demo of a piece of equipment, which is actually quite fun. To be honest. I get to play guitar and stuff on things like that. I love all of that. So here's an example. So when I play guitar, if I'm In behind or on top, I think I'm out of time. If you were playing guitar on the track and you were playing behind, I might think you've got really good feel. So that is one of the things that you have to do is you have to cut yourself some slack and when you're recording yourself, don't be so anal about it, don't, because I will edit myself tighter than I would edit you. So one of the ways round that for me because I, you know, I'm a good guitar player. So I have to cut myself some slack and I have to let my stuff be a little rourer. Then then I, then then I think it should be, because I would just think if it was somebody else I'd let it go. But on me it's like, oh no, I'm out of time, you know. And so cut yourself some slack, give yourself an opportunity to to just kind of like, you know, be a little bit on top, a little bit behind, but hear that in yourself that you can't hear in others, which is very, very difficult. That's the advantage of having a producer, because a producer will say, no, that was a great take. But when you listen to yourself, all you hear is like timing issues or something like that?

Yeah, oh, yeah, that's so true. Thank you for that. And how? Where's the line, though? How do you learn that? Because one actually very common question that we get all the time from our students and subscribers and listeners is how do I know, like, when it's tight enough, or if, when it's not tight enough, like where's the line? How do I learn that? Because they have a hard time doing that sometimes.

Yeah, work fast, work fast. If you're working fast, you get the idea and the inspiration down. That's more important than anything else. And I don't mean work fast like ignore it when you made a mistake. I don't mean that. Just don't be ridiculously anal about everything and go through everything a thousand times. Just work fast, get the ideas down and then later you can come back and go. Okay, I can improve this or I can prove that, but so many times I remember when I did I'll get a song With Andrew Frampton and the band called Vader and I had this guitar part that I've come up with and it was really basic. It was just Just this descending line and I had this line, just very simple going, and I had done it on. It was a Canadian guitar, might be like a seagull, that had a plug in, and I plugged it in and we cut the rhythm guitar and then I did it this is a I Did that, you know, as a harmonic part and Again on the DI acoustic and then we cut the rest of the band around it and then I went back in and re-recorded it all nicely mic'd up with a beautiful, expensive acoustic guitar, and I sent the rough mix off to Andrew Frampton and he went, what happened to the song? And I was like, what do you mean? He goes some things not quite that. It doesn't, doesn't groove like it used to. Did you really cut those acoustics? I was like, yeah, yeah, of course I, you know, I recorded them quote-unquote Properly. Yeah, so what do you mean? I was like, well, you know, I might up a really nice acoustic and replayed it. And he's like no, no, no, no, no, no. He goes. The essence and the excitement and everything in that song came from your Live as we were writing the song performance of it. So I went back to those original DI Dacoustic guitars and that's what you hear on the record.

Wow, that's, that's, that's so cool and I also think that is Very sort of liberating. This is cool for people to hear that, that they are allowed to use that, even if it's like technically less than ideal, right? Yeah, I mean, there's been records where phone recordings ended up being on the record just because you know that was, for whatever reason, the magic of the moment.

So the best one I think we've ever done. It was I did a song with a guy called Chris Allen who had won American Idol and he wrote it with one of the songwriters in the fray and Joe, joe King, and Joe had what he had done, the demo. He, he was in an airport lounge and he did the harmonies by singing into his laptop, like this pair of headphones on, and just went ah. So when we came to recut the background vocals, we resung them and they sounded great. But they didn't have this kind of grainy, terrible internal Mac mic you know sound, they didn't have this narrow kind of thing and and they also just didn't have that kind of off-the-cuff performance of sitting in an airport lounge. So we went back and we got the original demo and flew them in and it was just so much better. So it just is what it is. I think there was one point there. It was like flight number 57, you know, in the background.

That's ridiculous, yeah, but yeah, so cool, such a cool story. Where do I want to go there? Okay, yeah, this was where I wanted to go. Let's talk about Studio scene real quick, because, yes, please, this is coming up. It's in, I think, three weeks from now, right, when by the time this episode airs is probably two weeks or so. It's October 17th to 19th, I think, yeah, it is, and we calling it, it's studio, studio. See, it's not studio, zayna, you're doing it, it's studio, it's studio scene, it is the German word studios.

Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, studio scene. It exactly. It's in Hamburg, Germany, and you're gonna be there. We're gonna be there as well with our team, and so Warren is gonna do what you're gonna do. You're gonna do masterclass there.

About recording skills.

So this is gonna be awesome. It's happening on Tuesday, I think, the first day of the event, and then you're also gonna be doing a panel with Jason Joshua, which I'm looking forward to a lot, because this is something I mean, I Don't know, just a combination of the two of you. I've watched the the interview that you did with him on your channel, which was super interesting, and I just can't wait to hear you guys talk Talk shop there and you're talking about amazing.

Yeah, he's. He's exemplifies. I just did a Talk to some students here at Purdue University and one of the things that I touched upon was, you know, incorporate other genres. And the thing about Jason Is he he grew up like hip-hop, r&b and rock all mixed together, and so, even though he does a lot of R&B, pop music, I was surprised to hear that when I saw this interview I was so, he knows, rock. He knows rock, he knows you know it's, he knows rock, he knows it really really well yeah.

Yeah, that was. That was fascinating to see the to hear and talk about that stuff. So, yeah, and you're gonna talk about the future of AI and music production. So I'm looking forward to that too, because this is I don't personally, you know, do too much research on that right now. I just you know it. But but I know that a lot of people are very interested in this topic and I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about this. And I'm not against or for it or whatever. I don't have a clear opinion. I just embrace it as just another tool. But I can't wait to hear what you have to say about it and then what you talk there, because I know it's it's like a, you know it's top of mind for a lot of people right now.

Yeah, it's. I actually got asked about it today. One of the kids in the in the talk said what do I think of AI? And I just went back to like you know, when Alan Blumline invented stereo in the 20s and everybody thought he was crazy. And then I talked about how classical musicians Didn't like to be recorded and that there wasn't a lot of classical music at first that was available on you know anywhere. Because they they thought every performance was supposed to be a live performance and there was a lot of pushback about not being recorded. You know it took a long time for them to sort of catch up to the sort of, you know, big band and jazz and everything else that was getting recorded. And there was a very famous it's in my Abbey Road documentary that I did a couple of weeks ago and I'm blanking on the on the piano player's name I'm sure he was German and it was it was. It was Beethoven. I'm pretty swear he was a Deutsche Piano player bit. He talked about how he thought that recording was the devil Because to him a live performance can have a mistake in it, but it should not be replicated and heard ever again. It should only come out as one thing. So all of this is just a point to the fact that everything, even the most remedial thing, like the invention of stereo To channels to the classical music were being recorded, has always been seen to be the worst thing that could ever happen to music. So I think with AI, sure there's gonna be music that relies entirely on AI and no matter what you do, it will sound like music that relies entirely on AI. What what what, what it should, what it, what it has the possibility of being, is being another tool for a really talented person To create something that's unique, just like just like every other tool that's ever come out has been totally.

You still need taste, even you gotta know what the AI creates is actually good or not, and if you like it, if it speaks to you. So totally, I'm looking forward to that. That's gonna be awesome. And what? What is your masterclass gonna be about? Is there? I mean, it's called how to improve your recording skills. That's what what my schedule here says. But what are you gonna do there? Can you talk about that? Or? I mean, people should just go there, buy their tickets and, like, watch the masterclass. Of course, oh yeah, it's gonna be a lot of fun.

We look, we, my wife and I, are huge, huge fans of Germany, of Deutschland, like we always have the best time there. Both of us, like I said when we were, we've been there, you know, hundred times by, individually and together, but you know, it's, it's, it's. It's such a wonderful, wonderful place. And to be in Hamburg, which is abuse, you know, as we know, it's a beautiful city with tons and tons of history. I am going to have an absolute blast there, being able to talk about every single technique I've ever learned about recording. One of the biggest deals for me is the fact that I sought out, as an engineer, the producers that I admired as a kid and made sure that I A interviewed and B worked with them. So I've got Shelley, yacos and Jay Messina and, of course, the great Jack Douglas's information mixed in with, like everybody you can think of and all the interviews. So I got a lot of acquired knowledge. That's the thing about the book that I did with Jerry Hammock. The book is a ton of acquired knowledge and we're doing another one. We have a mastering book coming out soon and we have a mixing book coming out soon.

Oh yeah, specialist kind of books, but the current one has just come out this year, hasn't it? It has Earlier this year.

I think next year we'll have something specialized on mastering, followed by a book specializing on mixing. It's called Home Studio Recording, but it's the ultimate guide. Yeah, so it's Home Studio Recording and Mixing Guide. Yeah.

The link to that is homestuderecordingcom and it will be in the show notes of this podcast and in the description of the YouTube video so you can check it out and get your copy there. And I was actually about to ask you, warren, why, after all the video courses that you've done and the YouTube channel and all the material that you've already put out there in the world, what made you want to write a book instead of, like you know, doing more of the video stuff?

Well, I think the book is a natural extension. What's interesting is that and we have to remember is that everybody consumes information in different ways I still, I still given the opportunity. If I ever get a slow day, which will never happen I've never had a slow day in my life but if I had a slow day, I would get a book, newspaper and a cup of tea and or coffee, but typically a cup of tea. My ideal day off would be that, you know, playing some guitar, reading a newspaper, reading a book. I just it's still something I grew up with as a little kid that I love, and there's lots of people you know I'm a Gen Xer. I don't know how old you are, I'm a millennial.

But yeah, 35.

Yeah, so you're a millennial, I'm a Gen Xer, and then, of course, you've got the generation above both of us, the boomers and stuff like that, who love books, and so to me it's like I've got a message, I've got I'm trying to help people and I don't want it to just be the one way that it's done. You know, there's I want to speak to a lot of different people and a lot of people love having the book as a reference manual. I have, you know, we've sold thousands of the books based on that that people want a reference manual. So very, very blessed very blessed.

Awesome, this is great. I can't wait to get my hands on it. I don't have it yet, to be honest, although.

I love books, what?

Yeah, I don't know why. Actually, I don't know. I love books, but I need to get this one as well and can't wait to dive into this, because actually that's how I learned in the beginning, although there was still, as I said, I'm not too old, but there was YouTube already, or it just started when I learned, but I still enjoyed learning with books. I had a stack of books on my first studio desk all the time and I did exactly what you said. I had a reference manual. I was looking up certain things while I was working and trying to implement that and I just loved something physical next to me that I could just open up and look into when I needed it.

So, yeah, Sorry for noodling. This is what happened. You see, I got the guitar, I talked about how I should be practicing and I start noodling, so I'm going to give it back to Eric.

It's all good, it's all good. It's all good, it's all good, it's all good, it's all good, it's all good.

Why is he noodling while Benedict's talking?

All good, all good. So this book, are the other ones already written? Then when do you say they come out, or are you?

working on those right now? Yeah, I mean they're in the process.

Yeah, Okay, okay, exciting, exciting. And is there anything new that is exclusive to these books, or is it just a different format, but based on the stuff that you're also teaching in your courses?

I mean, it's kind of a bit of both, because one of the blessings is that I have interviewed and talked to so many of the greatest mixers in the world, greatest mastering engineers, so it's accumulated knowledge, and I think in our business that is the biggest thing you can do is you can just have a lot of acquired knowledge. It's just get in there and learn, learn, learn, learn. You know you're talking about taste. Listen to tons of different music, all kinds of genres. That's what it's all about. Yeah, it's really all about that. So some more questions. I'm dying to hear some more stuff.

Yes, we do that. So first of all, again, people go to the Studio Scene event. The Studio Scene event get your tickets there. This link is also going to be in the show notes because Warren's Masterclass is going to be exciting and the other people the whole lineup is pretty crazy, so you definitely want to be there. There's Jason Joshua, there's Chilzheimer, there's Warren Shewer, there's a ton of really great producers and all the audio companies showing their gear. So you definitely want to be there.

Get your tickets and it's really for people listening. We really want this to be a success, because one of my fears is that these kinds of events they're disappearing. You know music mess, or is it even going anymore?

Is it gone? No, it's gone, yeah, it's gone.

So when I was a kid, there was a thing called the British Music Fair and it was amazing. So there was a British Music Fair that disappeared 10 or 20 years ago. Now music mess is going, and it's just like I don't want it to just be NAM. That's fine, that's great, but Europe needs a place where people can come and talk about what we do, and there's nothing better than interacting with other real human beings, and so let's all go there. I think the tickets are super cheap, aren't they?

Yeah, they are, they are. Yeah, there's it's going to be in the show notes. There's different tiers, so it's hard to give people like a price because you can go one day, three days, without master classes. But even the free package for three days with master classes is really affordable for what you get there. It includes, like even catering and, like you know, there's food, there's drinks, there's like master classes, there's all of this. So it's really really good what they said up there. I can't wait. So, yeah, this is going to be awesome.

It's going to be a lot of fun. I mean, the master class for me is going to be. We just did two days of master classes here at Sweetwater and one of the things is to get to know the people that come and get to know what they want to know. I've been blessed to A&R at Labels, manage bands, be an engineer, engineer some big records, produce some big records, mix some big stuff, master, play guitar, write songs, run educational businesses everything you know, you name it. And so for me it's like the. I love it all. I have such great friends all across the industry in all ways, shapes or forms, so I like to get into these master classes and get to know the people there and find out what they want to know. So if you come to the master classes, just come there armed with questions that you want to know and I will say what do you want to know? What's going on? You know it's a me. So when it's like, what are we going to teach? Well, we could. We can morph in different directions based on it. I think there's always that typical drum recording thing. That's always interesting to learn. You know that's. We did quite a lot of the drum recording thing here. That's good I don't actually have done. We did two different drum recording courses while we were here. Just finished one last night with Michael Rango, who's my old engineer actually, who works actually here at Sweetwater, so that was fun, but that's. That could be a bit baptism of fire because the thing has the most amount of mics, typically, the most amount of need for compression, nigu, etc. So thank you. So that that's a. That's a big one. But at the same time vocal recording, of course, is the other thing. That's absolutely massive, I think, for most people. And there's there's, there's a lot to vocal recording beyond compression and EQ and mic prese and microphone selection. There's a lot of psychology that goes into it that isn't really talked about. Actually it's never talked about and it's mainly because you know, like a lot of people are teaching this stuff, haven't actually gotten a recorded vocals. You know, I've been blessed to record vocals on songs that we all hear on the radio and I've heard and there's a lot of psychology that goes into it and a lot of non psychology, a lot of just kind of letting it work and breathe. And you know, as Dave Jordan as I quote him all the time one of the wisest things. He said quite a few wise things to me, but one of the wisest things he ever said to me was, like sometimes you have to get into a song and rewrite it and rerecord it and change the tempo and the key and the lyric and the genre even, and other times you just have to get out of the way of the artist and help them make a great recording. So the skill set comes to comes to when you get in there and do a lot of work and when you do a minimal amount, when you do none at all and it's just you need to have a lot of. You really need to immerse yourself in a process and learn lots of different techniques and then know when to apply them. Rather than one of the difficulties and what I see more than anything else and I've really started to think about this and talk about this in the last few days immensely is when you learn a skill set and then you try to apply it to everybody, and I see so much of that. So I just realized that that's what's happening, because people will come to me and go. I saw blah blah blah video and he said you have to do it like this and I'm like that might be the one thing that he just learned, that he's trying to teach now. But no, you can learn. You know I don't typically grid drums but there's been songs where I've gridded drums. It's worked fantastically. Yeah, if I'm trying to do like a late 70s, early 80s synth pop song that had a drum machine going to do to get you know, I'm going to, I'm going to kind of like probably tighten up a lot more than something which is, you know, a swinging groove, six, eight, that has three different tempo changes in it, and then I'll probably let it kind of breathe and do. Whatever the point is is like it's knowing all of those things because, yes, once you, after about 20 minutes, you can figure out how to use the beat detective tool in Pro Tools or whatever it is, and you can do it. But that doesn't work with so many other instances. It doesn't mean that it's not valid. Of course there's a valid technique to know, but then you also have to learn and develop a really good ear where you can hear where things push and pull and that they work really great. Like that I was saying in the class earlier that we were teaching earlier that this morning at breakfast we heard count a newish Counting Crow song and it was really good, except you could tell it was like super, super tight and it came to this pre chorus section and it felt like the tempo needed to slow down so that Adam's vocal could just kind of sit in there and a bit more beautifully and just kind of bleed. And if you go back to recovering satellites record that was done on tape and it had so much, there's a song called I'm not sleeping anymore and if you know that song it's I'm not sleeping anymore and then it goes to this bridge where it's like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven all good children go down. It's like it's got this Beatles song part and it's a huge crescendo and then it slows back down again and that's what it needed maybe not as dramatic as that, but it needed. Those old ideas that they were doing applied to this new song that Adam had written, and I was just kind of disappointed and I don't know who had produced it or whatever. But my point is it's like I'm sure you know it's just one song, but I'm sure the rest of the record was amazing. You know who knows. But my point is it's like that's when a good producer would step in and go. You know what this is working for. 90% of the song Verse sounds great with that groove. Chorus is great, but that pre chorus needs to slow down so that the vocal breathes better. So the impact of the chorus when it comes in is greater, and so that's where somebody with more than one way of working would would have done a really great job, somebody that has experience in. You know, in free form, kind of you know, rubato, you know. I don't know if people know classical terms, but rubato, you know, beethoven is obviously the perfect example of rubato. That's one of the blessings, I think, probably of having a father that I had that was a classical buff and a jazz fanatic. You know, growing up listening to Beethoven, you know all of that rubato is just. You know I'm not sure how much of a classical fan you or your listeners are, or watchers are. Well, you know Alfred Brendel is then you know he is like the. You listen to Brendel playing Beethoven. He has the the meter. The tempo is all over the place, but you never, ever Doubt what he's doing is best for the music.

Yeah, never question it.

So you know I'm not saying I don't want to come across like a snob, because I am not a snob at all. I can't. I can't stand people that wag their finger and tell kids off, because Ultimately, the best music and the freshest music is made by people that are getting into it for the first time. Everybody we admire Was at that, was at their creative peak when they're in their 20s. You know, and I'm not to say they didn't come back and continue making great music in the 30s, 40s and 50s. I mean, of course, of course there's many people that make, continue to make great music as they get older, but that kicking down the doors kind of thing is a big part of it. I love, you know, I love two-tone and scar. I love punk and post-punk just as much as I love listening to Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt. The three guitar players that I grew up on is still and Joe Pass, of course Joe Pass of Ella Fitzgerald I was talking about that earlier. Some of the greatest music ever made. Just Joe backing Ella Fitzgerald live, it's like, brings you to tears how beautiful it is. So I can listen to that. But I can also listen to. You know London's burning, or London's, you know, by by the clash, at the same time as listen to damn neat, neat, neat. At the same time as listening to Bohemian Rhapsody, which is my favorite song ever. Or hey dude, or, or, or, or some dance, yes, massive attack. You know I love all Porter's head first record. You know that stuff is all, it's all on the same level to me. You know to do miles Davis, kind of blue. You know it's Marvin Gaye, what's going on, it's all, all to me as relevant songs in the key of life. Stevie Wonder, you know anything. Bob Marley, you know.

It's a while mixed. There was a while mixed there, but you're right. Yeah, but you know that was. That was always one of the things.

I admired about when we would play. So I'd play in a when it's playing Club band stuff. We used. We used to get on a ferry and Ramsgate and then go and In land, land in France, and then drive through and then go and play in Germany, would play the American airbases. You remember those days, yeah, there's big American airbase, we play American airbases and then club nights in between the airbase things all the way through Hamburg and Munich and all Of that stuff, and even got to play in East Germany and Dresden, you know, and all this stuff and play all these shows. And it was amazing because we were playing like funk stuff and the audience was like guys were like Demond jackets and Iron Maiden and Saxon Pat patches on dancing to us and then we realized that German audience were incredibly eclectic and they loved all genres and I always love that and I think that that's a big thing, is like Love. All music, you know, there's only, as Duke Ellington said, there's only two types of music good and bad.

Yeah, totally. I had to learn that honestly, though, because I used to be as probably most people, I used to be a you know, elitist when I was young, when I was younger, when I was like I was like only into metal, only into this or that, and I would. I like I liked other stuff, but I didn't admit it. And then I had to learn to like embrace it and admit it to myself first, and then be able to say it, hopefully, and now I enjoy all kinds of things, just like you said, but it took a while, that's okay.

That's okay, it's. It's okay to be that person. You know, I think there's a big part of your journey is to is to be kind of a musical snob and come out the other side. I mean, yeah, when I when I was seriously into jazz, jazz, I want to see Miles Davis. As a kid, I want to see Miles Davis pay just before he died at Hammersmith Odeon, and it was one of the greatest shows I've ever seen in my entire life, wow. And so I was just like I didn't want to know anything, but jazz wasn't interested and I'd already been through my punk rock phase, I've been through my metal phase and you know Queen was still my favorite band at that point. But once I got to see Miles Davis live, I mean for probably six months, I didn't listen to anything except for Miles Davis, john Coltrane or net Coleman, charlie Parker, that was it. It was bebop and what came after bebop and that was it. And as far as I was concerned, that was the only music. And I'm glad that I went through that snobby phase because I went out, collected loads of albums, I immersed myself in it and then, of course, like anything you kind of as a gateway drug. You know, you're listening to, you know Bitches brew or something like that, and you're hearing John McLaughlin playing with David Holland, and then suddenly you go from a little bit of a birds of fire Mahavishnu orchestra kind of thing and then you see all the crossover of those musicians. So you start getting, oh well, who else did they play with? And then, before you know, you're putting it all together. And then you know, and then I'm back into Jeff Beck and I'm suddenly listening to blow by blow again, which I'd listen to if you used before, and then it gets a bit more funky and then I'm start obsessing about, you know, funk, rock guitar playing, and then rock guitar playing, jazz rock guitar playing, and the point is is like it's good to be obsessive about stuff because, yeah, it shows you're passionate and you will end up going in different directions.

So, yeah, Well, I love about this is when, when conversations like that are so not technical but about the music and about like the things we're passionate about, these are the best conversations. I can't I just don't want to listen to podcasts about audio anymore, where it's just like compressor settings, and you know this frequency of that why I love conversations like that. So I appreciate you for saying all of that really well.

I just interviewed Paul over at Spitfire Audio and I asked him about theory, because I know it's really really popular to do videos on YouTube about theory and it's definitely very elitist because it's basically like I understand, and you don't sunny, you know, and um, it's, it's interesting because they'll break down songs and say what the, what the composer or the writer was doing, and yet the most of the guys and girls that were writing those songs had no idea what they were doing. Yeah, somebody, somebody wrote a response to what Paul was saying from Spitfire Audio Saying well, you know, you have to know all of your theory and you have to understand it all you know in order to be able to do all of that, which I really don't agree with, but I don't Disagree that it's good to know theory. I understand theory, I can read and write music. I. I totally understand that, but I don't necessarily think it made me a better songwriter. Paul McCartney Once famously said he doesn't know what a 1, 4, 5 is, but he knows what GC and D is. So he knows that GC and D is the foundation of all rock and roll, those four Court, the sorry, those three chords. And then he knows that bridges usually are a six chord and a two chord, you know, the minus six and the minor two. But he didn't know that that's what they were called. He just heard songs like that and then wrote songs based off of that and he did strange things like put the wrong chord into stuff because it sounded good, not because it was a. You know, blah, blah, blah, parallel minor flat and fifth digi blah, blah, blah, blah. And so this person, and you know, came up with a very, very structured and very honest response. Well, you know, it's good to know the theory and have it as a basis and have it, be a favor with it, be so familiar with it. And I said that's very, very true. But do you ever? There's some, there's, there's scholars who make a very big point about the fact that in their peak, mozart and Beethoven had a fraction of the musical theory knowledge that we Now, since the days of jazz and everything that your average music school Student does. So a guy goes off, guy girl goes off and does three or four years and in a university and comes out with a hundred times More knowledge on theory than those great composers had. Yeah, yeah, who wrote the best music? I just wonder. Has anybody written at Beethoven's fifth or ninth symphony anything of that kind of level since then. Now, with this hundred times more Knowledge and and and everything being at your fingertips, I feel like I love music education. I'm a big part music education.

I love it, obviously yeah so, but I don't.

I don't want anybody to think that us teaching music education Is the only way to do it. My job, at the end of the day, is just to encourage people. It's the same job I have as a producer is to find what's good about what you do and do more of that. Five people ask. Three of the questions were related to vocal performances, musicians performances, how to get musicians to interact better and get, get, get them to acknowledge each other, and I'm like that's our job. Our job is to go. They just sang a vocal. I've said this many times for the people that have heard this before. But somebody sings down a vocal so you can hear for the first time and let's just say it's absolute garbage, except for the second verse where there's one line where they did some kind of breath through the word or some twist on it and it's Absolutely amazing. But it's the only good part of the song. What do you talk about? You don't go. Oh, that was total garbage. You go. Oh, my god, fred, linda, whatever the person, sit aside, listen to this and, yes, you play that little piece back and say see how amazing that was. Give me more of that.

That's how you produce a very good way. That's the way.

Yeah, totally so so instead of being like worry, no, the Phrygian legion bloody, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know it's like it doesn't help, it doesn't help it. It's a good way of saying I understand better than you do, but I think I and I. But let's, let's get in there and say, okay, this is what it analyzes at. But how do you get to that point? What you get to that point is by trying out ideas, not not in a learned way, but by sitting there and playing maybe a guitar part. You're coming in and just going, you know, thinking of the melody. Where does it take me? Often it takes me to a place where, you know the, the minor chords only becomes a major, I mean a three. A three major dominant is really nice, but I don't, off the top of my head, know what that movement's called when you change it. There's probably some really super clever name for changing in a, the C sharp minus seven, to a C dominant. I don't know what is, but I know that it leads really nicely into the four chord, the D. I just know from experience it does. And if I want the, the chorus, to now modulate to a D, that's a great way of leading it in to now change the key of the. These are things that that I have learned by accident and probably Theory wise could have taught me, but then so much more of a revelation when you just out there doing it. I think the biggest thing is encourage the creativity. Don't make it about the learning, make it about like I just want people to be making music. And if it means that, going back to your own a question, it's a combination of using AI or whatever, whatever gets them going, whatever it is, whether it's just a drum loop that's loaded into logic already and they're writing over it, I mean the argument would be like you have to use a real drummer. It's like, ah, you know, we can always take everything back, yes, and make it seem like there's cheating. Well, everything is cheating. Everything we've done has been done by somebody else. It's just the new thing is like how you twist it and incorporate other ideas towards it. So, yeah, enthusiasm and encouragement is the most important thing for me.

Yeah, you can, you can tell so, no, this is, this is incredible, and you speak about this, so hit me up with the last couple of questions right, each something awesome perfect. Thank you, very kind, thank you for doing this. So the first this is from our coaching community. These are all like people who are in our yeah, people that we teach in our platform, and they are very excited that we got you here. So Wayne is the first person. He asks Can you recall your most difficult session, one that felt like a real struggle but actually came out pretty good in the end?

Yeah, I think there's there's so many of those, to be honest, because when we did, you found me, which was the first single offer, the second album for the fray, which is their second biggest song after how to save a life, so it was a massive success in that respect. The chorus was like written and rewritten a multiple times. The drum part was was written and rewritten a multiple times and was you know, you always have these fond ideas that a song is like. You hear stories of like yesterday. You know, we all know the story of Paul McCartney waking up in the morning and going and he had this melody and then he sat at the piano and it was called scrambled eggs. I'm forever making scrambled eggs, sorry, so he doesn't have a lyric, but he has a melody and he, he, he dreams it. So apparently he runs around Singing this song to people saying is this somebody else's song? If I stolen it from somebody? And so the so you get this kind of rose-tinted spectacle idea that a great song just comes out of the air. Yeah, you, you found me is their second biggest song. It's probably, I think. I think it's a billion streams. I think most of the big songs are a billion streams and so you got a billion stream song, especially as a song that came out before streaming, you know. So it's a billion stream song and, and it went through a lot of incarnations, it wasn't finished till the very. It was the first song that they came with because, because of the first line, I found God on the corner of first and Armistad, so that existed, but nothing else existed. So I had a verse idea and the chorus kept getting written and rewritten. We had to change the drum part. I tell this story a lot because it's a thing called a drum dial which you put on the the head and you mark it off. We were able to move studios and recut the drums and still have almost the same drum sound. Because of the drum tuning, the ambience changes from room to room, but it's pretty minimal compared with the sound of the close mics and the drums. So so that's that. That's a big deal, so I always talk about that, but that's a good prime example of a song that was started. It was the first strong song that they had and the last song we finished recording and I think I think it was. It was nine months that making of that record, but it paid off. So I'm paid off, yeah. So what might have been considered a difficult song to do, by all intents and purposes and intents and purposes ended up being one of their biggest songs ever Awesome.

Thank you Awesome. Great answer, Great story. So next question is from Chris. Chris says what tricks do you use to calm some nervous client down and get him or her into the right mood for recording?

Just keep it lighthearted, don't take the session too seriously. One of the things that Jack Douglas kind of definitely taught me was what was to do that he would do these things. Where he does these things, where he'll take, like a pitterbread, you know, a pitterbread and put it on his face and cut out the eyes and the thing and just kind of walk around. He just has all kinds of stupid silly stuff. That's just hilarious.

I've never heard that that's insane.

He just keeps it really lighthearted. Yeah, I think that you know, read a room that's. The producer's job is to read the room. If everybody's really uptight and pissed off and all this kind of stuff just change the environment. You know, sometimes it's, you know it's get out and go and walk down the street and get a Starbucks coffee or something like that. I don't think it's always that I'm careful with that, because I work with a particular songwriter and we did a bunch of records together and his solution was always to do that and after a while it gets exhausting, because if you're engineering and producing, you've got an artist that's always goofing off and so that isn't always my solution to changing the environment. I do think work begets work and I think that sometimes you just have to work through it, but you just need to change the environment or at least the feeling in the room. Feeling in the room. But we're in digital, so we can just kind of close down the session, open up a different song and within 30 seconds you're working on something different. So that's the other thing as well, just kind of like, don't make a big deal out of it, just go. Oh, wow, you know that guitar part you did. That reminds me of the song we haven't finished. We need to do the guitar, make it light, go book and suddenly you're in a different zone and you're doing something else. But it's tough. There have been records, something, one record Eric knows exactly what record it was that was an absolute nightmare with vocals. And it doesn't matter what we did, how we recorded it, how we comped it, the singer was never going to be happy and that's just because there's lots of reasons why. But you just have to do sometimes. You just have to do your best work and do everything you love and the artist will never be happy with it. I think one of those examples is like we recently interviewed not recently, but we interviewed John Leckie a little while ago and talked about and Steve Lilliewight and Steve Lilliewight talked about, you know, working with some of the, you know, most important records of all time, and one of those is the Lars. You remember that song. There she Goes. He didn't actually produce that one, but he produced most of the rest of the album and he talked about making that record and that is one of the most important records of the last like 40 years and influenced so many of those Manchester bands all look to that record and yet the singer hates the record and uses it as a reason why he has never done anything ever again, like because it just wasn't that record that he wanted to make. And that's fine and that's. But then then it's, you just point to it and you go. It's one of the most important records ever made. It influenced a whole scene of bands that came after it that absolutely loved that album. That wasn't a record I made. Obviously, that's one that Steve Lilliewight made. But it's an interesting thing that you know it's not going to happen very often, but every now and then, once one out of every 110, whatever it might be albums you just might have to deal with the fact that you're going to do, you're going to work as hard as you like, you just just going to have to deal with the fact that the artist might not be that happy. It's just you've got. You can do everything you possibly can, but you know, as what was the what's the Churchill quote? You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all the time.

Yep, totally, thank you. Awesome. We got two more and then we're done, if that's fine. Okay, so awesome, perfect. So thank you. Torsten asks this is a really interesting question actually. He says how can something new be created in modern music in terms of songs or sounds, if all artists and engineers always have access to this huge collection of references from the past that they use as a basis Example? He says could something be like like overdriven guitar? Could something like that be invented still today? Something like that's never been done before, or is has everything been done? Because everybody always draws from like past references and experiences.

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I remember about 15 years ago I can't remember what the Brooklyn band was, but they, they, they took a heavy, heavy guitars and like a really pretty vocal and put the two things together. And one of the interesting thing was about the guitars is it was digitally clipped so it was like really bad, but you got, you got this kind of clipped, horrible, ugly guitar sound, but then there's kind of pretty girl singer over the top and it was pretty awesome. I'm trying to remember the name of the band, the Brooklyn band, but anyway, my point is is like it sounded fresh, it sounded different, it sounded unusual. Yeah, I, I, I think there's tons of opportunities to create new stuff. It's just, you know, that's the bit that I want to encourage is the creativity as opposed to the you know, kind of like the right way or the wrong way to do it kind of discussion, which really annoys the schneselavny when people start saying, well, this is the right way to do it or the wrong way to do it.

Yes, all right, all right, thank you. Awesome, so that's the courage thing. And then final question again from Wayne is have there been any points in your career where you've suffered from imposter syndrome All the time?

all the time we the, the, the second Frey record went to number one and it was the number one album in America. It sold like 187,000 in its first week. And I remember just thinking I have no idea what I'm doing, even though I spent nine months on it and that was a lot of work for me, that album. You know, I yeah, there's a lot of work, and so it was a weird one to sort of to have a number one album. But then just think I wasn't good enough to have a number one album. And I remember talking to my friend, brian Colstrom, who unfortunately died a few years ago. He was part of that oxycontin epidemic which was really sad. But he he told me that when dirt became like you know, anderson Chains, dirt became like this seminal record that everybody was name checking at the time of being like such an important album. And he had, he had poured his heart and soul into that album and he just thought that he was a fraud, he thought it was an imposter. And so that made me feel better because I thought to myself, what, if you know, because the Frey second, second Frey album is a great album, I'm really proud of it. I'd love to remix it, but that's a whole other discussion, but, but. But I think that it's a wonderful, wonderful album. But dirt by Anderson Chains is not just a wonderful album, it's an important album that changed the music industry at the time. So if somebody who made that record is having doubts and it's OK for the rest of us to have doubts- All right.

Thank you so much, Warren.

Thank you, Benedict.

It's been a lot of fun Totally. I really really enjoy it Come and see me at Studio Zena. Yes, so we'll. We'll be in touch there. Definitely, we're going to do a follow up episode actually there. We got a slot at the podcast sofa there, so we're going to do one. Can't wait to hang out and people get your tickets. Go there, please get Warren's book. By the way, I just ordered it while we were talking here, so I got the hard cover by the book. By the book. I just got the hard cover, so get one too. And yeah, let's hang out the studio scene. Thank you so much again for your time, Warren. Is there anything else we need to do to tell people like where should we send them? Is the book the thing right now? Should we?

Yeah, I mean, if you know the show notes, but yeah. Yeah, produce like a pro. You know, go to the YouTube channel, but obviously go to the website, produce like a procom. You're just saying this Pro Mix Academy, if you're into metal. One of my business partners, of course, is Kola Christian Christian. Kola yeah, he's awesome, yeah, he's awesome so check out the Kola Audio Cult as well, and we'll all see you at Studio Zena Awesome.

Thank you so much. Thank you have a great day, warren. Bye, bye, thank you.

Thanks a lot. Talk soon, thanks, talk soon, thanks, bye, bye, bye, bye.