TSRB Podcast 027 - The Pitfalls Of Being Overly Obsessive During Tracking

[00:00:00] Benedikt: [00:00:00] Find the middle ground here because it's really this fine line between not being too lazy or sloppy and I'm being overly obsessive. So let's dive into some practical solutions and things you can do. This is the self recording band podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own wherever you are.

DIY let's go.

Hello and welcome. To the self recording fan podcast. I am your host Benedict time and I'm here with my friend and cohost Malcolm Owen flood. How are you? 

Malcom: [00:00:37] Hello? I'm good, man. It is still sunny over here in Canada. I hear it was hailing over in Germany. So this is nice. 

Benedikt: [00:00:46] Yeah, I hope it's just a short. A storm kind of thing and will be over soon because it was amazing with the whole, like the whole last two weeks or so were amazing.

Malcom: [00:00:54] Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure it's not going to be, that'd be quite the twist in 2020 if [00:01:00] Germany just descends into winter. 

Benedikt: [00:01:03] I wouldn't be surprised at this point. Oh man. But, um, Yeah. So you had some tracking sessions. We were talking about that before. 

Malcom: [00:01:14] Yep. It's been a pretty busy little while. I've just had abandon all week.

I've been tracking away, tracking away, working out a couple of different studios. One was awesome. One was a pain in the ass, but the band was great. That's the most important part. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, it was a, it was a lot to manage five days back to back long days, really like. Adds up and you really have to be organized and you have to have a strategy and a plan if you want things to not descend into chaos and confusion essentially.

Benedikt: [00:01:48] Oh yeah, totally. You have to. And that also applies to when you're working on your own, uh, when you, uh, recording your own music, not only when you renting out like studios or do like Malcolm, like travel [00:02:00] between the and studios, um, you gotta, you gotta make sure the whole process. Go smoothie and you focus on the right things and you, um, they use your time, spend your time wisely on the things that really matter.

So part of that is also knowing when something is good enough or not good enough yet, and how to like communicate with the band members and like you're essentially your friends in most cases, which is also important. So it's not only about the record. It's about relationships. And that's why, because this is such an important topic and people are having issues with that a lot.

That's why we do this episode and it's about the pitfalls of being overly obsessive or tracking and how being too hard on yourself and your band members can negatively affect performances and relationships. Because that's a real thing. Like you do not only risk to get a subpar product in the end, but also like you risk your relationships with your friends.

If you, if [00:03:00] you're not careful here, right? 

Malcom: [00:03:01] Yeah. Definitely. If, if people are unsure, if they've experienced this yet, you probably could look for it. In other situations of being in a band, like when you're writing together, um, Normally, when a band starts, they have this writing spree that just seems unstoppable and they just pump out song after song, after song, without any hiccups, but eventually a song's tough to write and, and somebody might show up with a bad attitude and then you're trying to write a song and there's just, no ideas are common.

And everybody's kind of just like, everybody's hit a wall. And if you're not careful in the studio, if you get too obsessive, And too caught up on little details that don't actually matter. That's exactly what can happen here as well. So, you know, instead of tracking the guitar part, you're just obsessing over the performance of this one section over and over and over.

And, you know, all of a sudden you've been playing it should note different guitars and different apps and whatever for four hours and got nothing done and nobody has any ears anymore. [00:04:00] Nobody has the energy to record it, even if you wanted to now. And. That time has gone. And not only is that time gone, but the player's enthusiasm is also gone, which is the worst part.

Benedikt: [00:04:14] Absolutely because you have to remember that a, the, the, the final result, the outcome of everything you do is like, like depends on everybody being stoked, you know? And then like depends on the, the performances. It depends on how excited you are while you play. Like, you can hear that stuff in the end. And like, if, if the, the energy is not there, the vibe is not there.

People are not excited. Um, it shows and it's like, it's going to be a different end result. And, you know, in most cases we also, we shouldn't forget that this should be fun. Like in most cases, the people in your band. Are your friends you're doing this because it's fun. It's not just a job. Like for many of us, it's not even a job at all, but like, even if it is your income or side income, it's still [00:05:00] something that should be fun.

Right. It's art. And it should be fun for the people to listen that, listen to it. And that will only work if you have fun while you're creating it. So you should not only enjoy. The end results and try to achieve your goals, but also enjoy the process, right? Like it's like, hang a game. If you play a game with someone you like, it's not necessarily just about winning.

You just want to play the game and it's the same here. You want to go to the studio with your friends, make music, enjoy the process. And, um, that's, that's an important to remember here because we always talk about goals and how to do things right. And how results, but it's not only about the results. And I've, I've seen this.

In a couple of instances with people that I'm working with, where without saying any names, but many people just get stuck and just don't know when, when things are good enough health, how long things should take, how to properly communicate, how to be on the same page with everyone in the band. And like some people in the band still enjoy the [00:06:00] process and like obsessing over every detail while others are kind of losing interest and are not as excited anymore.

So that's a real problem that happens often. And, uh, yeah, just some projects just take forever and it, it doesn't have to be that way. 

Malcom: [00:06:15] Yeah. I do want to say that this doesn't mean that it's meant to be easy. He knows like, so it's a fine line between it's still going to be hard and challenging to get these takes to the level you want, but you do have to develop the skill and, and make sure you're in the right mindset to realize when it is.

Good enough and realize when it says good as it's going to get as well. Um, and not just, just beat the dead horse, as the saying goes, you have to, uh, well, we talk about it in this podcast. A lot about committing sounds on the way in and just being like, this is the sound I want. Why wouldn't I just commit it?

I don't need to like. Not do that because that's what I read on the internet. No, you can just commit it and know that this is exactly what you [00:07:00] wanted it to be. And that does the same with performances. I think it's pretty cool. Common for engineers starting out to just. Record take after, take after, take after take just because they're just like one half their bases covered and be like, Oh God, that was not good enough.

At least one of these hundred takes will be, and that's a bad way to go about it. You're just kind of wearing, wearing the performer out in a, in a big way. So. If they get it right on the first try. I mean, actually if they get around on the first try, I normally do get them to do it a second time. Just in case they could do it better.

Um, you know, it's like, well, maybe, maybe that was their bad take, but it sounded awesome to me. But if, uh, you know, three takes in and I know that first one was killer, we're going to stop it there. We're not going to do more just for the hell of it. Um, so you have to be really aware of what's going on.

Benedikt: [00:07:46] Absolutely. So to give this, this episode, um, some structure I'll just go quickly over like the problem, what actually like some of the problems and some of the things that actually happen often that I've, I've seen in [00:08:00] people's projects. And then we'll talk about cons. What consequences. Um, can have on like for your relationships and, um, for the performances, the results you're getting.

And we're going to talk about some solutions of course, and tips you can use to, to avoid that problem. So what happens often is that, as I said, projects take forever. Um, as Malcolm said, like, it feels like, um, like you don't know when it's good enough and it feels like someone is always complaining and have like, they make you do it over and over and over again.

And you're not really sure why. Then, uh, sometimes people just have to wait while the tech person in the band constantly messes with details and things that don't seem to matter, or they're not sure what they're doing, or they are not quick enough with the door. So they constantly messing around and the other people have to wait.

Uh, well, maybe some I've also seen that some band members may have to drive a long way to the practice space or the studio and feel like they are wasting time and they want things to go quicker and more efficient, like, and they want to drive their a [00:09:00] hundred times until the EPS finished. Right. So those are some of the things that happen if it takes too long.

And if you're overly obsessive and focus on things that are not really so important or as important as you think. So let's start with the, like the personal consequences that what consequences it can have for your relationships and for your band. What is some, some, what are some things that you've seen happen in certain those sessions?

Welcome. I 

Malcom: [00:09:27] mean a really common and pretty bad one, I think is just that the person's self esteem gets pretty distant Troy, by having to play it over and over again, they start to doubt themselves and think that they're not good enough and that they can't get the take, how it's meant to sound, even if they can't tell what you're looking for.

Um, so, uh, and we are making an assumption through this episode. I think that whoever is running. The da is probably the most focused on this like that. That's just generally how it goes. Whoever's running. The computer is the one that's just like obsessing over the [00:10:00] details. That might not be true, but usually it is.

So you're running the dark and then somebody else is playing the guitar. Part of that say for right now. And if you get them to play that intro like 80 times in a row, eventually they're going to start to think they suck and start to get worse. Um, In that session, but also just for future sessions. And they're going to want to like, not show up anymore and not want to do this.

You know, if you defeat them too much, they'll actually think they can't even do it at all. And then you've kind of lost them at that point. Um, so confidence, I think is a, a big cost of this. If you're not careful. 

Benedikt: [00:10:37] Totally. That's, that's super common. And I think it's still important to push people and to get the best takes out of them.

So that's also not like my com is not saying again that it's, it should be easy or that you should always use the first or the first three takes or whatever. Um, that's not the case, but in case you need more, you need more takes or it's really not there [00:11:00] yet. Um, there are ways to. Maybe say it differently or like, um, it's, it's, it's often that the, like how you say it more than what you say.

So we'll get we get into that later, when you talk about, um, solutions and tips, but in general, like yeah, the, the, the self esteem confidence thing is a big one. Definitely. And I also think like consequence for relationships could be. It's like when you've spent so much time together working on something, even if you like made it through this process.

And even if you, if like the result. Turned out great. And everyone like, and everyone likes it. It can be that you are just burnt out after it. And it can like really? Yeah, it can cause the band too, to just slow down and like you, you will need recovery time and you will not be as excited to promote it.

And to book shows because you need a break from all that stress that you had recording those songs. So even if you make it [00:12:00] through the process and you're still friends, it could harm. The band and the overall vibe in the band. And like once the project is done and everybody's like, yeah, burned out. And that's also dangerous.

And I actually I've seen people. Uh, like bands break up after a big project where it was just so exhausting and they couldn't get themselves back up again afterwards, so. Yup. 

Malcom: [00:12:23] Yeah. And, uh, or they just never release it cause they just don't feel good about it anymore. Uh, yeah. Unfortunately you have to love this thing that you're making.

So you can't kind of risk jeopardizing that. Um, and it is fairly common for people to be like, cause I mean, it's part of it. You're, you're going to play the song a lot of times and hear it so many times that they're like, Oh God, I need a break from this song, but you don't want them to hate it. That's like, that's a big difference, you know?

So it has to be a positive, fun experience and it is a tricky thing to do. And unfortunately, as a new kind of producers, whoever's [00:13:00] sitting in the chair, uh, recording their own band. It's kind of stacked against you. Cause you're learning how to use the door. You're learning how to engineer on the go.

You're learning how to manage your band members in a, in a new way, because you're now kind of by default not treating them as necessarily an equal. You're kind of telling them what to do because you're trying to like capture the performance as, as the engineer and producer. Um, and that's a, that's a total dynamic shift.

Some people don't like being told what to do. So you have to really learn how to. Uh, do it in a way that satisfies their little quirks and egos and stuff like that, you know? Um, so yeah, I mean, we're, we're, we are going to talk about more tips and stuff later in the episode here, but, uh, the biggest thing I think is just positive attitude going into it and making sure that they're the performer is also in a positive space.

Benedikt: [00:13:49] Totally. Let's talk about consequences for like, um, performances and the results actually. So aside from the personal consequences, your product, you're the [00:14:00] sound of your record will, or like your arrangements of the songs or whatever you're working on. Uh, we'll probably suffer if you are overly obsessive.

And that sounds counterintuitive because you think if you're like really a perfectionist, then you get all the details, right. You might think it will turn out to be a better record, but the opposite could be the case. And here's why number one, if people are not still, they don't play as well. Simple as that, if you're don't, if you don't like it, you just not perform as well.

It will not sound as exciting and people will, will notice. So that's the first one. What else is there that you could think of? 

Malcom: [00:14:36] Uh, I'm kind of thinking of the law of diminishing returns. Where, uh, this picture of drummer, they start out stoked and fresh and strong and healthy and awake. And then after like hours and hours of playing the same song, they're hardly hitting the drum.

Cause they're so tired. They're not patient enough to play in time. So I like rush play faster than they should. The, [00:15:00] uh, or, or they're just too tired and they're playing sluggish and they just can't really keep up with the click or the scratch tracks. Um, I mean, all of those things. Or you'll also, you know, now your drum heads are totally beat to hell.

Um, your sticks are broken, you know, everything's gone wrong because pro symbols are broken. Uh, like the longer you go, all of these things are going to start suffering. And that's just a fact, you know, and that's true with every instrument, guitar strings are gonna get dead. Bass strings are gonna get dead.

Um, the vocalist vocal chords are going to get worn out. So you actually have the time limit where the longer you go, the worst things get always. Yeah, no matter what 

Benedikt: [00:15:40] absolutely like I've seen that you can go in and all sorts of directions. Like even if people are, are not mad at you, if you were the person, like who's very hard on them.

Um, even if they're not getting mad at you, some people just mad or angry at themselves for not being able to pull it [00:16:00] off. And I've seen drummers throw sticks across the room and like being really angry and mad. And what, what that leads to is they can't concentrate anymore. They're not there anymore.

Really. They're not focusing and they're not giving a hundred percent. It can't go, can't go in all sorts of directions, but in all cases, The end result were probably suffer. 

Malcom: [00:16:20] Definitely. Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:16:21] Yeah. It could also cost you more money, even if you're on your own studio, because as Malcolm said, you might need an extra set of drums, skins or something.

If you, if it takes longer or you might need more, more, um, strings or sticks or whatever, like that's also something you can 

Malcom: [00:16:37] definitely. Yeah. And, and like with the vocalist, especially if you blow it, their vocal chords by just running them too long. Now you need weeks, at least, you know, before you can get them back in.

Um, so there's, there's the physical Sonic qualities that will get lost. But what you're talking about about their like energy and ability to [00:17:00] play well, I mean, I think everybody who's a musician has kind of gotten into like a float zone where they're just killing it. Like, especially at concerts, you know, you have like these parts of concerts where you're just so in the zone and you're nailing everything.

Obviously, you're going to have a better recording if your musicians are in that space, when they're recording, rather than the, like over analytical, focusing too hard and tripping over themselves kind of mindset. Right. Or, or too tired to even be, you know, like, okay. Jumping all over the place. But this is something that happens a lot where you change something on somebody.

So the drummer comes in. And you tell them to go to the ride instead of the high hat for the course, and then you try and punch it in and they just keep going to the high hat. They just can't, they can't do it. Like, you know, they're caught up on the other way around and this could be any instrument, any circumstance you just changed something and they just cannot get their body to listen.

Mmm. That's the kind of thing that you got, like you got to watch out [00:18:00] for, um, because that ability to adjust. Is what makes records be able to become these magical moments where you can experiment and adjust on the fly and discover magic. And if your drummer is too tired and unable to focus or any player, not just drummers, I'm picking on jumpers for some reason right now is to unable to adjust and move with like the inspiration.

That's like the creativity that's flowing through the room. Then you're kind of like losing out on the ability to capitalize on these cool. Ideas as they come. And that's like, that's when I'm like bummed out, like, ah, I know this song could be so much better if we could just get them to pull it off, but they just don't have it in them.

And that sucks. 

Benedikt: [00:18:39] Oh yeah, totally. It's such a big one. Oh, they are not. Open to it anymore. Like they don't want to hear any news suggestions or ideas. They'll just like, felt like they don't want to do anything. And they, yeah. Whereas when they are still fresh and excited and see that they're making progress and that you move on and that like that you creating something together and that it's fun, they [00:19:00] will be much more likely to be open, listen to two ideas and try to make it work.

And. Yeah, totally. 

Malcom: [00:19:07] Yeah. I'm part of a good producer is being able to gauge their ability to do stuff like that. Um, there's definitely been points where I've looked at the clock and thought about the idea I've got for the bridge and just been like, it won't happen. We're just gonna not do that. It's going to be the way they wrote it.

And, uh, Thanks. It's just, they can't afford another day and they won't pull it off tonight. So like that's a hard call. Oh yeah. But it had to be made, you know? 

Benedikt: [00:19:33] Oh yeah, totally. That's part of being a producer, as you just said. Right. So, um, yeah, but that's also one of the advantages we've, we've set that, uh, in, in, in episodes and early episodes.

That if you don't have to pay for studio time, you don't, you at least don't have that problem. So we will just, in this episode, we've constantly saying that it should be quick and shouldn't take too long, but if you need another day and they can, of course happened. And it's like some things [00:20:00] just need a little more time.

You can do it in a relaxed way. You don't need to worry about money. You can keep like the vibe app, you can say, okay, let's finish it today and do another session tomorrow. Us, anything, you know, you are more free. You don't have to power through a crazy long day just to try and make it work. Um, that's one of the advantages that you have and sometimes just like taking a break in the car.

Spreading it out to the different day can make a difference. But we'll talk about that in the solutions again, right? 

Malcom: [00:20:32] Yes. 

Benedikt: [00:20:32] Okay. Definitely. So, um, yeah, the, the whole thing about, it's what I said, it's important to feel like you're making progress. We're gonna do a whole other episode on that. So it's not something we're going to talk in depth about now, but.

That's just something to, to keep in mind that you always want to move on. You always want to make everyone feel like you creating something together, that it actually comes together and you want to get people stoked to play and contribute to it. Um, [00:21:00] and yeah, that, because if that doesn't happen, People seem like they have the feeling like they're just wasting their time because they don't see really any, any progress.

They, they stop believing in the whole project eventually. And, um, so yeah. Keep like, move on, get things done. Keep everyone excited. Yeah. And that's, that's how you, that's important too, to get a great result as well. What, when we're talking about consequences for performance results. Yes. So we've talked about one thing.

In a couple of episodes and that is editing. What does editing to do with all this my company? 

Malcom: [00:21:36] Right? Well, sometimes you're better served by fixing the performance in question in the doll, rather than trying to get them to play it over and over again. Sometimes it's just, it's way quicker and sometimes it's just not possible for them to play it the way you want to hear it.

So, if you can just make that happen real quick, click, click, click, click, click. Yeah. That's totally worth it in my, in my [00:22:00] mind, you know? Um, you're not fatiguing them. You're not. Burning out their instrument or their, their physical ability. And you're moving on, but you were just talking about momentum is so huge in these sessions that like that'll keep a tire person going is if they think they're winning, you know?

So like, even if you, if you're recording vocals and you get caught up on the first line, which actually happens quite a bit, the first line is always the hardest. Just move on and, you know, do it like four times or whatever, and they're still not getting it, just be like, alright, that sounded great. Let's move on to the next one and just keep going or whatever.

And then you know that you're going to come back to that first one, but you don't have to tell them that. Right. Then, you know, you can just be like, that's great. We're moving on. They think they've won it. They're like sweet. Okay. We're onto the next one. They're making progress. And then you burn through the song.

They start getting more confident and more confident like that. And then you just. You know, they're at peak confidence, you jump back to the start of the song, they nail it right away. Yeah. So you can do that with all instruments, just momentum, keep them thinking that they're winning and they [00:23:00] will win.

Benedikt: [00:23:01] Absolutely. 

Malcom: [00:23:01] But yeah. What was your question? I went off topic there. Editing. Yeah. I went way off. Yeah. So editing though, uh, is another thing that you can do to keep them winning. And if they just can't get that, chances are, you can probably nudge it the extra 10% it needs with editing and just get that done.

And then like, that's, like we said, get it onto the next take next part. 

Benedikt: [00:23:26] Yeah, totally. But I want to say a couple of things to that because it's a, like, it's a hot topic in some, some way. And also it's um, yeah, we, we need to talk about it a little bit. So, so what we mean here is mainly you can rely on editing to save a great take.

So there's nothing wrong with that. So if someone. Um, like does a really great performance, a really great job singing or drumming or whatever, but it's just not technically perfect. You might still want to keep that take because it's the most musical one, the most exciting one. [00:24:00] And instead of trying to get that same energy and the perfection, you can just keep the, take the energy and make it more perfect in editing.

And there's nothing wrong with that. The other way around is you can, as Malcolm said, make. Like just a performance that they can pull off. Um, you can make that better or you can like save that, but I would be careful with that because they can go off in the other direction. They can, like, we're not here to tell you that you can just be lazy and make us like, do sloppy performance and then just fix it afterwards.

That's that's not the right mindset. It's just. You always have to think what's yeah. What's the better solution for the moment. Is it better to do another five takes? Is it realistic to get it in those five or 10 takes or whatever max you want to do? If it's not realistic, you will probably rather move on now and just edit it.

And if you think you can get it out of them within a couple of takes, then it's worth trying, you know, you always have to. It's a [00:25:00] fine line and you always have to make that decision. So yeah, it's just, don't be lazy, but consider editing and also know that it's, there's nothing wrong with it. If you use it all, all like the end result and the fun you have while you're making it is all that matters.

So yeah, before we get frustrated and ended up with a. Um, less than ideal result, I would just edit it. 

Malcom: [00:25:23] Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Now there's kind of an easy way to know if, if it's not good enough and that is if it takes longer to edit it into shape than it would just to record it again and get it right. That way.

Then you should have just recorded it again. It should be very quick thing. Um, so if we could, our state's playing it again. They're definitely gonna hate waiting for you to try and edit it. 

Benedikt: [00:25:45] Oh yeah. And that's also another thing that we need to see here. A, you need to know how good you are at editing, or if you have someone that you outsource it to that you trust because you have to.

You can't always do it on the fly. Sometimes you just [00:26:00] have to be confident enough that you can actually fix it. And, um, yeah, you gotta be honest with yourself because if you say we can fix it, but then you can't, you have a problem. Right. So, um, and, and also doing it on the fly. It's great. If you're not wasting anyone's time, but if you are like, not as quick in the door or like, Not as experienced or if you have to try things a lot, then I would not do it on the fly because that again, kills the vibe that again makes everyone wait.

And, um, so I would just think about if you can't, if you think you can fix it and then make that decision. And if it's just a little thing, do it on the fly, but don't have the whole band waiting for you trying to fix something. If you do that after every take and will go on forever and no one will be excited to play anymore.

Yes. So, yeah. Um, what, like what do you, in those cases, I mean, you can edit obviously and you are asked and the dog, do you still like. What do you do? Do you edit a lot on the fly? 

Malcom: [00:26:55] I do. Yeah. I think that's just because I'm, I'm fast enough at it. I [00:27:00] really love knowing that I'm never going to have to think about that part again.

Um, before we move on. Yeah. Uh, that's not to say that there isn't times where I do, like it's all that it comes down to experience of knowing, okay. What, how much time is left on the clock? How much time is left in this player? And. How close is this performance. Um, so if I can just nudge it in, by the time they're getting like, you know, I'm like tune and then I'm editing as they're tuning.

And if I can get it done before they're ready to hit that next part, then that's kind of how I'll go about it. And usually that works for me. 

Benedikt: [00:27:33] Okay. Yeah, sure. But the main reason is that you it's just you're fast and you know what you're doing, and I've seen it with a lot of people who are not like that and they try to edit it on the fly, but then not really sure what they're doing and then it can be, yeah, yeah.

A problem. 

Malcom: [00:27:50] But yeah, like you said, you just have to know, you have to be absolutely positive that it will work. Um, and, and that's part of the reason I guess I edit on the fly often [00:28:00] enough is that I, like, I just need to know that it's done. Um, so if you want, if that's how you think you'd like to do things, you have to practice and put in time to get fast.

That's like a requirement. You can't expect people to wait for you. 

Benedikt: [00:28:15] Yeah. And often this is also something. Um, that helps, you know, if it takes good enough or not, because if it's so far off that you, like, let's say you have practiced and you can do like basic editing. You can do like basic time stretching, slip, editing, basic tuning, like stuff.

That's not too crazy. Um, if you can do that and you're not sure if. You can't fix a part if it's so far off that you're not sure you can do it. It's probably not good enough yet. Totally depends. Again, if you can get the takeout of the player that you want, but sometimes that's just an indicator that you know, that it's not good enough yet.

And if it's just something where you say, okay, it's a little late or a little early, it's not perfect, but like, we can easily fix that. Then you can just move on because that stuff like that it can be [00:29:00] fixed. Or if it's just a little flat or a little sharp, it's no problem. Those things. If you know what you're doing, so.

That also helps you decide if a take is good enough or not, and you should always focus more on the energy, the performance then on those technical things, that's also something you just need to practice. You just need to forget about if it's a little late or early, sometimes you just need to listen for other things, the character and the voice, the, the attack of the pic attack or the attack of the drums or the, the overall vibe and stuff like that is more important often than if it's perfectly in time or a little flat or something.

So. 

Malcom: [00:29:36] There's probably a keyboard shortcut and Erie doll. That's for something called the nudge key. Um, at least that's what it's called in pro tools and that just nudges a clip left or right in the timeline. And you can set that to be whatever amount of samples you want. Um, and I would encourage everyone to just learn that.

Because enough of the editing that you'll need to do on the fly is just grabbing the entire clip. They recorded and nudging it a little after. Right. You know, just taking [00:30:00] the whole thing. It's like hardly even editing at that point. You're just taking what they did and it moving the entire thing a little bit, one way.

And that'll, that'll normally get you close enough to be able to move on. I think, because I want to be able to listen back to the whole thing at the end, by the time they get to the end of the song, I want to be like, okay, let's listen to it, check it out and make sure we're done. And we can listen through it without being like, Oh, that was weird.

That was weird. You know, if we have to stop every time, that's kinda that's sucks. So that is like a really quick, actionable, little editing trick you can learn and get quick at, on the fly and just nudge as you go without them even without slowing down at all. Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:30:38] And, uh, 

Malcom: [00:30:39] yeah, that's generally, if, if you can't get it to sound pretty well right with that, then I think it's a retake.

Benedikt: [00:30:45] Yeah, totally. And before we move on to like tips and solutions, it's again important to say here that editing, there's nothing wrong with it and it doesn't kill like the soul or whatever of the song and it doesn't ruin like the, the [00:31:00] magic it's the opposite is the case. What ruins it is overly obsessing.

And, um, yeah, having players in the studio or in the practice space that don't want to play that are not excited. That is what kills the vibe and what kills the emotion and energy of a song editing Euston, the way that we just described. It just helps that because it's a faster process. It's more fun. You get more exciting takes to focus on what really matters, what really connects with the listener.

And, um, it just helps the song. It doesn't kill anything because people always, when they hear editing, I know when we gonna release this episode, somebody will email me and tell me that editing is wrong and the devil and kills music, you know? So that's not the case, right? No matter what someone on some YouTube video tells you that that's not the case 

Malcom: [00:31:44] and they're heavily edited YouTube video.

Benedikt: [00:31:47] Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because otherwise it would be so exhausting to watch. That's the way they edit it. And it's the same with music, but that's a whole other topic. 

Malcom: [00:31:57] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You [00:32:00] mentioned, uh, I think that over editing is just as dangerous. Yeah, of course. And, and kind of the same topic, because editing is the engineer's version of over obsession about a take.

They just like it's their instrument, all of a sudden. The rat, learning all their Hockeys and chopping and stretching and stuff. That's becomes a little instrument of Lex and they just want to touch every little, like transient on there and you don't need to usually, um, so learn that, you know, uh, yeah, there's, there's a slime between okay.

I can quickly make this better, or I can obsess on that for half an hour here and then really piss off the guy waiting to play. 

Benedikt: [00:32:39] Exactly. Especially if you do it in front of people, like yeah. When there's someone waiting for it and yeah. Also they pay attention when you, when you like that. I can, I can understand that because I'm like, of course I'm a nerd and I like.

Computers and tech stuff and working in the dark because that's my job, but you have to read like body language and like the [00:33:00] faces of the people around you, and you might get excited and you bet be able to edit for an hour without like getting exhausted. But if everyone else around you is waiting and gets annoyed, you just, yeah.

You just need to be aware of that and just. Communicate with people and watch how they react to that and have a conversation before you just go off do it. Yeah. That leads us to tips solutions. What you can actually do to fight the, the middle ground here, because it's really this, this fine line between not being too lazy or, or sloppy, and I'm being overly obsessive.

So. Um, let's dive into some practical solutions and things you can do. 

Malcom: [00:33:38] All right. Uh, number one, take breaks. Counter-intuitive every band always wants to just hustle and, and work lot super long days without any breaks in the middle. And, uh, that's just such a terrible idea for so many reasons, which every reason we've talked about here, fatigue, uh, just like.

[00:34:00] Mindset and focus. All of those things suffer without rest. Um, your ears, even, you know, a big part of engineer's obsessing over things is, is the year getting hypersensitive to things, you know? So maybe you decide that you don't like the way the picket scraping and you just like spend. Way too long, messing around with stuff, trying to fix that.

And then if you'd just taken like a half hour break or whatever, and come back and listen to it, you'd probably be like, Oh, that sounds good. Like, it's just like, it's just stood out to you for some reason. Um, and that really happens. You just hone in on things that don't matter and aren't even necessarily bad.

You just hear them for some reason. And, uh, yeah, breaks are really the only way I know how to defeat that. Um, I would actually say that you should take a break every hour, like a 10 minute break. Every hour is like a good rule of thumb. Something that I am absolutely just atrocious at following, but it's what I do.

It's hugely beneficial. 

Benedikt: [00:34:58] Absolutely agreed. I need to learn that [00:35:00] myself and I am getting better at it, but, um, What I've found lately is that you might think taking breaks frequently is a waste of time. But actually the opposite is the case. In most cases, when I really forced myself to take breaks, I'll get it done earlier than when I try to just burn through it because I make mistakes.

I go back to things. I doubt myself. And, um, when I take breaks that doesn't happen as much and we're focused quicker. And, um, so in the end you might even be faster. When you take breaks. So yeah, let's just try that. That's true. 

Malcom: [00:35:33] And, uh, also important to remember that yourself and your band mates also need to have food.

They require food to live and perform. Um, and that's another one for some reason, bands show up to the studio and they think that they should skip lunch to just keep working and like, okay, well, you're going to be just useless by the end of the day. 

Benedikt: [00:35:52] It's only that and, and, and water. I guess I'm that too.

Like I forget that I need to drink. It's [00:36:00] like, I don't know why that is. I need to force myself to drink enough, but when I don't do it, I'm just so look spent after a while. Like, I can't think clearly I had got, I get headaches. I like drinking enough. Water is so important, especially if you do like mentally exhausting work.

So yeah. Totally. Yep. Luncheon, water, food and water. Not 

Malcom: [00:36:21] just coffee, not just beer. Yeah, 

Benedikt: [00:36:25] exactly. Then I'm the next one here is discuss the goal before you start tracking. That's important before you start the whole project, actually, because what I, what I seen sometimes is that people kind of mix up the steps on the way to the final product.

So they will write the song. They will work on the arrangement. They will start tracking. Maybe then they will rehearse again. They may change something, they get feedback. Then they track again and it gets all mixed up. And you're not really making progress. You're not really know what you're working towards.

You don't have a [00:37:00] final vision there, or like the final version of the pre production before you start tracking. Um, you constantly have to discuss things during the tracking process. So. It's recommended and much, much easier to batch the single steps of the process and to start with a common goal and something you all work towards.

So discuss what you're going forward, discuss what the record will be like, why it should be that way. Who's the audience, what you're trying to accomplish. All that things, all those things then work on the songs, work on the arrangements, get feedback on that part of the process. Then do the preproduction, get feedback here.

Record like the demos recorded or more refined demo until you have basically the final thing as in, in demo form, like the final pre production. And then when there's basically nothing more to discuss, when everyone knows the goal, everyone knows the direction you're going in. Everyone knows what the song's going to be.

Like. You just have to document it or like capture [00:38:00] it and give your best and do the best takes. Then you start tracking and that's just. Makes you feel like you're making progress. It's a quick way to work because you can focusing on one thing at a time and not constantly going back and forth. And, um, Yeah.

And everybody is like on the same page and works towards the same goal. And everybody knows how good it should be, how tight it should be. Everyone knows that they should practice or, um, if they're just not good enough yet you can track later and everyone. Yeah, has the chance to get better and practice or improve their setup or whatever.

So that eliminates the need to torture people during recording. Like if you practice before, you know, like if you're just prepared that doesn't even come up, so don't mix those steps up too much and just be on the same page when you start tracking. I think that's super important. 

Malcom: [00:38:54] Yeah. Yeah. Communication is just like the big category there.

And I [00:39:00] liked all of those points you made. Because when I wrote that into our little show notes here, I, I was just thinking like, they're literally sitting in the chair ready to play, and then you have a discussion about what you're about to do. Um, but what you just said is awesome. All of that stuff, leaving it up to there will go such a long way.

And, you know, you want them to know why they're in the chair before they get there. 

Benedikt: [00:39:20] Totally. That's why we have haven't whole episode on the importance of preproduction and preparing and stuff. And that's why we talk so much about the setup and all this stuff before you record, because that all eliminates much of the issues we're talking about in this episode, actually.

Malcom: [00:39:35] Definitely, definitely. Um, but on the topic of having that conversation, when they're in the chair, guitar and lap, ready to perform. That is a good spot to kind of prepare them for what is going to come. Um, and I can be pretty grueling on, on the musicians who come to work with me. I can be pretty tough on them.

So anytime I remember to give them a heads up for like how much I'm going to kick [00:40:00] their ass. Tends to go well, like, you know, it's like, they're like, number one, they don't believe me, but then they do believe me as soon as they start doing it, you know? Um, so like that, that helps otherwise it's they think it's going to be easy and all of a sudden they're just like sweating, like literally sweating and stressed out.

And they're like, why is this guy like telling me to do it over? Like, Oh my God, this is so hard. And, uh, I thought I was just going to play the song once. Like start to finish. So like sit them down, like for example, Benny, let's pretend you're the guitarist and we're about to punch you in to start recording the song.

I might be like, all right. So just so you know, I'm going to be really on your case about tuning, like in between every take, I'll probably get you to tune, but because we're doubling, you're just going to tune after you get a left and a right down. Sit up straight. Hold your pick. Yep. That's the right pick that we already shot up picks.

So that's great. Always use that pig. Don't change picks on me and how this is going to go is I'm going to [00:41:00] record you. We're just going to play just the intro and then if you get it, I'm going to immediately record you again. If we don't, I'm going to get you to tune and we'll record it again. And we're just going to do that over and over again until I tell you that we've got it.

And I might, you know, expand on that a little bit and just be like, I'll offer tips if things like need, what if we need to adjust and stuff like that, but you just need to focus on nailing this one part. And then we hit play and then I start kicking their ass. Cause I'm moving. Yeah. I think part of it for me is just like getting them in gear to realize how quick and fast paced I'm going to want it to be going.

You know, it's going to be like, all right, play, play again, play again, kind of thing. And if they're not ready for that, it's just like, Oh, like I think I thought I was going to sip coffee between them. 

Benedikt: [00:41:49] Yeah. Well, first of all, I've seen you in a bathrobe in early mornings 

Malcom: [00:41:54] too often. I ask you to be afraid of 

Benedikt: [00:41:56] you.

[00:42:00] That doesn't work anymore with me, I 

Malcom: [00:42:02] guess. Like, 

Benedikt: [00:42:05] if you like everyone else, uh, you're still in authority today. 

Malcom: [00:42:11] I'll never be producing your band. 

Benedikt: [00:42:13] Nobody's totally right. The way that you said that alone immediately, like even now, Immediately makes me pay attention and listen, and I just know what we're about to do.

And, um, it's not an it, I don't perceive that in a negative way at all. It's just, it's, it's a clear way of saying how things will go, what would do next, why we do it. And it's kind of gets me in the right mindset to perform. I know what to expect. I won't be surprised. I, if I don't like. Any of it. I can, I can just have a conversation and ask you about it or if we can do differently or whatever, but 

Malcom: [00:42:50] it's just how, what and why.

Benedikt: [00:42:51] Yeah. So like the, the communication is so, so big and yeah. Especially again, if you're working with your friends [00:43:00] yeah. You should just be open and talk about things and like yeah. And nobody should ever be surprised. And, and take things like in a negative way. So yeah, totally. That helps a lot. Yeah. The other way around is like, or another way of doing it.

Or another thing that helps is. You just can be positive and make like compliments and reassure people rather than just criticize them and be like hard on them. So what Malcolm just did was not, he wasn't negative or he was not being hard on me. He just made clear instructions. There's no questions left.

Like I just know what to do. I'm focused. I'm ready. I want to pull it off. Uh, and then when I pull it off, I'm sure American will like, let me know that I pulled it off and that it's great. And he will reassure me and he will like give me a confidence boost and I will be even more excited to move on and do the next thing.

And that's just goes such a long way. So it's not about being mean to [00:44:00] people, not at all. It's about being clear when, when you need to be clear and it's about being positive and like, Yeah, just making sure people keep their confidence and self esteem. 

Malcom: [00:44:12] Yeah. This is my biggest pet peeve in the world right now, I think.

Uh, so if you go back to, uh, we did an episode on vocals 

Benedikt: [00:44:20] episode number 11, five essential steps to a pro vocal recording. 

Malcom: [00:44:24] Yes. That was great episode. You should listen to that if you haven't, but we talk about a little bit about getting rid of everybody. That's not meant to be there for that part. Um, so kicking out the band and just having the vocalist in there potentially, and yourself, the less people, the better, and the reason, the one that the big reason right now that I'm thinking about is that other people might not know how to give feedback as well as you, and not understand that compliments and reassurance go a lot further than, than criticism.

Um, and especially with vocalists and stuff. So I like to have a manual talk button, um, of way communicating with, with [00:45:00] the, the singer, especially so that when somebody else is in the room and they say, Oh, you were flat on that. Like, whatever note. They don't hear that because I wasn't holding talk back because they don't need to hear that.

They don't even need to know that they didn't get it. They just might need to do it again. You know, like they know what the note is. So 99% of the feedback that people have for singers, especially is not important to be heard, like is a bad idea for them to hear. In my opinion, the feedback they need is.

Oh, like, could you push a little harder on that word? You know, like it's like tone kind of thing. They're trying to hit the notes. They don't need to know that they didn't get it. Yeah. You know? So like almost all criticism is better onset. Yes. Because it's not actually relevant. They're trying to do it.

Right. So you was telling them they didn't get it. It's not going to help them do that. Um, they, they need to know about stuff that they're not trying to do. You know, or they don't know they need to do. And, and you might be better served by just complimenting them [00:46:00] being like, you know, you literally look awesome right now.

And they're like, Oh cool. And then they sing a little more confidently. Dang. We got it. 

Benedikt: [00:46:08] Totally. And also the stuff that you'll let them hear, it makes a difference how you like. Um, like the words you use make a difference. Like it's a total difference between saying, um, that was too early. Do it again and saying, if you could like do it a little later, if you could come in a little later, that will be awesome.

You know, making it positive, sound positive and letting them know that they almost got it. It's just a little more in that direction is much better than, than constantly pointing out what's negative or what was wrong. So that also helps a lot. If you can say the same thing often in like two different ways.

So you should be careful with your words and the impact they have. So, 

Malcom: [00:46:51] yeah, that's, that's very wise. Yeah. It's not uncommon for me to be comping something and just be like, Oh, like that was awesome. We almost have it. I just need one little bit. [00:47:00] Just hit it one more time for me. I bet we'll get it. And like, you don't even, I almost like don't want them to know which part I'm trying to get, because I think they'll, over-focus on it, you know, and, and just kinda get to hyper-focused and it's just like, you're doing great.

Hit it again. Yeah, we got this kind of thing. 

Benedikt: [00:47:16] Also doing like the feedback thing too early can like ruin, ruin the vibe or obsessing to stay on topic of this episode, obsessing about things too early can be dangerous. So because especially vocalists just need to. Like GAF comfortable. They, they need to warm up a little bit.

And like when they do the first take and immediately after the first take, the whole bank goes off and tells them what is wrong. Like that's the best way to ruin the whole session. Just give them a couple of takes. Let them hear the song. Uh, before you say anything, basically it could be that the first take is great, but just let them sing for some time before you even start saying something, it don't go in too early.

That's also something I see a lot when bandmates [00:48:00] immediately go off on the singer, like right up to start it. 

Malcom: [00:48:03] And yeah, this is especially true of vocals, but it's definitely true of all instruments. You know, if the drummer is just rushing to field into the first course, give them a couple tries. You know, they like, they're nervous.

They're just like under the microscope, there's a bunch of people literally looking at them through a window. Yeah. It's weird. And you know, same with guitarist. If they're playing a chord and there's bending one of the strings, a little out of tune, you know, it, might've just been a weird to take. I wouldn't jump on it right away.

Benedikt: [00:48:28] Also be, be on time. Like when you are. In the session, like as a band mate, make watching someone perform. If you want to be there, be on time and don't come in like an hour late. Miss everything that's happened in the first hour and then say what you want to say to what you're hearing. Like that's also a common thing that where people would come in in the middle of the session, they don't know what was going on.

They don't know where we're at. They hear the first tag and they immediately start criticizing. That's also like a really bad idea. So be there from the beginning, or if you, if you come later, [00:49:00] just be quiet and yeah, totally. Okay. Um, the next thing be quick, uh, the more you're out of the way, the better that's that's again about, um, the editing thing, I think a lot.

And about them handling the Dar stuff, right? 

Malcom: [00:49:18] Yeah. Yeah. Just, uh, if, if it takes you too long to do really any step in the process, It slows down the session. There's no, there can't be a flow if they're always waiting for the computer, um, AKA you, the computer's fast it's you? Uh, so just learn, learn your dog, get good at it.

You know, I literally practiced. My dog skills, like just in empty sessions and stuff like that. Learn hockey's it's like an instrument. If you treat it like an instrument, you'll do fine. 

Benedikt: [00:49:47] Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:49:48] totally. There's always going to be something that comes up though. So don't, don't get too stressed out about it.

Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:49:55] Um, yeah, that's basically everything that needs to be said. Practice it. Be [00:50:00] fast. Be invisible. Focus on like. The performance, be a good communicator, be present, like look people in the face, watch how they react, listen to what they say. Don't just be in your screen all the time, you know, just be in the room with them and do the computer stuff.

Like without them even noticing that that will be ideal. Just be a part of that team and operate the computer, like as just natural in a natural way. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:50:29] Yeah, the, the, the speed of your de-skill should be at conversational pace, hopefully, you know, um, so you can be describing what you want them to do and then punch them in right as he was telling them too.

That's that's pretty awesome. But we should also mention that that also kind of extends into the heart were part of engineering side of things. You know, you also need to be quick enough with getting and, and gear set up, um, running cables, plugging in staff, getting levels, headphones. Um, so no monitoring that stuff can also eat up a lot of [00:51:00] time.

I was in a studio just last week where the routing was undesirable at best, and it took a long time to get anything going. And it definitely was not ideal for, for the progress of the session. Um, you know, I thought we'd be jumping around between multiple stations, but it was not set up for that. And, uh, Bummer.

So anything you can do like that, the better I started making a point of showing up early to get a head, start on, patching, whatever I thought we were going to start with because of this. I was like, okay, if I can get that early and have it ready to go by the time they get there, victory for me. Yeah. And so, yeah, that, and that's something you can probably do it with your home studio setup is you can just have something ready to go by the time whoever's coming, uh, shows up.

Benedikt: [00:51:46] Oh, yeah, totally. Um, yeah, always have that stuff before ever if someone shows up and that's, I want to say, if you're recording your own band, you need to talk about that also, because that can lead to another problem in [00:52:00] your relationship within the band. If one is always the person who has to prepare everything who does everything, who is responsible for the tech side of things, You might have someone in your band who likes that, but that can also turn into like, I'm the one doing all the things like I'm responsible for everything I'm spending so much time on this, you know?

So that can, that I've seen that like result in a whole other conflict within the band. So if you are, if you need to put in a lot of time to get a headphone lines that have phone mixes together and make sure everything works and everything's ready when the band arrives. Just have a conversation about that.

Let them know if like maybe they can help in some way. Maybe somebody else can, can do something else instead of that. And just, just so you have the feeling that it's like yeah. That everyone contributes to the whole thing and it's just not one person. So, but I've seen that happen a lot. I've been there myself as well, so yeah.

Malcom: [00:52:59] Definitely [00:53:00] was, uh, that's a whole like possible episode is just the expectations for the work you're putting in. If you're the person recording your own band, you're, you are putting in so much work, um, that they just can't match. Like, you know, you kind of have to be the one doing all of this work. So I think having a conversation about what you expect in return be that, that they're practicing and nailing their parts to a very high degree or.

Or maybe, you know, maybe they can contribute more in the marketing release stage, you know, something like that. Yes. But going off topic, I guess. Totally. 

Benedikt: [00:53:35] Okay. Um, yeah, try to minimize setup times. That's basically what we just said. Do that before the actual session starts, um, Like make use, we've already talked about that in a whole episode, make yourself like checklists and so that you don't forget stuff, be prepared.

It's, you know, it comes down to being prepared, to not being surprised by anything too. Uh, know how to troubleshoot things. We also have an episode on that. [00:54:00] So whenever something goes wrong, you know what to do, have a plan B um, always assume that something will go wrong because it will. So, yeah. Be prepared, try to minimize setup times and technical stuff and, um, batch, if you can.

So. Maybe set up, like all the, maybe, maybe if you're, if you're setting up a headphone mix or a headphone line for someone in the band, you might as well do the other three while you're at it, because it's the same task. You can grab the headphones for everyone and do it all at one time. Um, yeah, if you're creating new tracks in the door, maybe just create all the tracks for the session and like name them and label them color-coding or whatever.

Just batch tasks when you're setting up the session or your room. So because it will be faster and you will focus on one thing at a time, which is always huge. It's always important to do. 

Malcom: [00:54:58] Definitely. Yeah. I [00:55:00] think the last thing we should talk about, uh, so as we've been going here, we've been just like describing these on ideal circumstances that will arise if you're not careful where.

The player is burnt out or angry or, you know, whatever we've mentioned, um, pretty much the situation that we don't want to arrive in. And I think a really valuable skill is knowing when you have arrived there and you just need to stop, you just need to quit for the day, call it and be like, we have to just try again.

Um, maybe, you know, maybe you don't need to quit for the day. Maybe it's just like, okay, let's take a break. Maybe that's all it is. But sometimes it's like, okay, we're just going to call it. That's a day. Um, we're not going to get it today. We have to be okay with that. Take some time and come back with a better attitude or rest or, or get some more different gear, whatever the circumstance calls for.

But no, when you just have to call it. 

Benedikt: [00:55:53] Yeah. Yes, totally. And you might wonder what that has to do with the actual title of the episode, like [00:56:00] the setup things or knowing when to quit. It all goes into that because you start being hard on yourself and on others. If you kind of lose when you can lose the big picture and when you don't know, um, Yeah, when you just, you're just too into all the details and you are just obsessing over that kick drum pattern or that kick drum sound or that guitar tone or whatever.

And you just don't want to stop until you have it and you totally missed, um, the, the, that moment where you should actually have stopped and. That resorts to you. Like you will not be a great communicator and a great friend anymore. If you like in that, in that mode, in that cell phone, like we, you kind of own, all you want to do is get that thing done that you're working on right now.

And you're going to forget everyone else around you. You're going to forget the big picture. So that's why, why that is important. And maybe this could be maybe someone else's the bank can do that chart. Maybe you should separate that. We've also had episodes where [00:57:00] we talked about that someone should be the producer and in the creative sense.

Right. So if you're the engineer and there's always this danger of like over obsessing and focusing and being too hard on everybody. I think if someone next to you can keep the big picture in mind and just say, Hey man, I think that's it for today. I don't think this will get better. I think it will be a better idea.

Should you continue tomorrow then? That could be very, very helpful. So if it's not just one person, but you split that up, that could be the solution here. 

Malcom: [00:57:29] Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. I think anytime you can delegate tasks out the 

Benedikt: [00:57:35] better. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:57:37] Generally it's too much for one man to run a band and record it and produce it.

And, uh, one man or a woman I should say, uh, it's, it's a huge job. So take the help where you can get it. And it might mean giving up a little bit of control. But that you'll get okay with that. 

Benedikt: [00:57:55] Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, that is you, like, if you [00:58:00] are struggling with that, if you are, if it takes too long, For you to get your project done, or, um, if you're struggling with people getting angry and your band or whatever, that just know that this is normal, it's not that you are a mean person or that you're doing something wrong or you are not organized enough or any of that.

It's just normal. It's because you like it so much because you love what you do. You want to get it right. And I totally get that. You are. Obsessing about it because you want to make it perfect. And it's always dangerous to forget your, your bandmates and the goal and everything, uh, while you're doing that.

So that's totally normal. I see it over and over again. And I've been there myself. So don't feel bad after this episode, if you're that person, um, it's a totally common thing and it's just a matter of approaching it a little differently of having someone. That who holds you accountable, who helps you with that?

Who just tells you when you too far, who keeps the big picture in mind, find to be more [00:59:00] positive, appreciating the fact that you are not having to pay for studio time, but you have a little more time to do, to take breaks and always remembering that it's the process should be fun as well. Natural, not just the result.

So yeah, don't be mad or angry or sad after this episode. It's totally normal. So. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:59:18] Yeah. I mean that you're doing this because you're so passionate about it. That's just like what drives all musicians is like this weird passion for the music we've created. And so, you know, don't be surprised when that passion gets you into these corners and you're like, okay, I have to take a step back.

It's fine. 

Benedikt: [00:59:35] Totally. And I felt like that's why this episode was, was important because we are always talking about, um, yeah, just doing, doing it right. And they paying attention to the details being prepared and all that. And. Um, that can be the result of that actually. And I don't want that to, to harm your project or your end result.

I think that's why this episode was so [01:00:00] important to me, because I just wanted to let you know that all of that is there to help you, but it should never stop you from having fun or, or like risking your relationships within the band. It's just, there's a, there's a line, you know, and. So, yeah. 

Malcom: [01:00:15] Yeah. This is something that like, like myself, I produce bands all the time.

I still struggle with this all the time, even on, on projects that I'm not like a part of like, I'm just a producer. So I'm like, I wasn't there investing time songwriting with them and being in a band for five years. And I'm still of getting too obsessed, you know, like it's, it's just a thing. Um, so it really takes a conscious mind to, to stay on top of.

Benedikt: [01:00:42] Right. Totally. So if that is something that interests you, like in general, if you're interested in productivity, Um, getting things done. Um, the focusing on the right things, knowing what is really important and what is not a Mecca, mine has another podcast [01:01:00] called, uh, your band sucks at business where they talk about, uh, business stuff.

That's like of course band related business stuff. And where they talk about productivity, which is a part of that. And they talk about something that's called the 80 20 principle, which means that 80% of your results come from 20% of the effort you put in and vice versa. So 80% of the time you spent will only lead to 20% of the results.

And you're going to apply that and basically to basically anything in life and that if you. If you get that concept, it will make it a little easier to filter out the things that you don't need to do now that are not as important focus on the few things that are really important and will make the whole thing better.

And you will find that you're saving yourself a lot of frustration a lot of time. Um, and that's just one technique or one principle to know, but, um, he's got a whole podcast on, on things like that. And if you want to learn more about that, go to. [01:02:00] What's the url.com. 

Malcom: [01:02:02] Uh, does your band sucks@business.com?

Easy. 

Benedikt: [01:02:04] Cool. And what's the episode where it's about the 80 20 principle 

Malcom: [01:02:08] that is 14 as the 80 20 principle rule. Um, yeah, I mean that one definitely applies to CA can apply to being in the studio. I use stuff like that all the time, and I think it's especially true in a self recording setup where you don't have all the options available.

You don't have the big studio to try out everything that you might think is important. So. Using principles like the 80 20 rule, you kind of have to figure out what really matters and, and hone in on that. 

Benedikt: [01:02:35] And by the way, the 80 20 rule is not something that Malcolm came up with. I came up with, but that's truth.

That's not true. Some, um, thing we think could work, but it's, it's really a universal truth. It just works. It's uh, it has worked in business for forever. Um, it's. Yeah, just look it up, listen to the episode, learn about it. You'll find out what it's all about, but, um, it's, [01:03:00] it's just true and it helps you can apply that to your personal life as well.

But that's a whole nother topic. I nearly 80, 20 anything. 

Malcom: [01:03:08] Yeah. Whenever possible. Yeah. It's fantastic. Uh, yeah, we also, we talk about like a lot of what we talk about is releasing music, which is obviously the step that comes after. You're done learning what Benny's teaching in, uh, through his self recording band lessons and stuff like that.

So it's kind of a logical next step for listeners of this podcast. I think to listen to your band sucks at business and figure out a plan for actually getting that music out there into the world. 

Benedikt: [01:03:33] Yeah, totally commanded go over and listen to that show. Subscribe to that show. It's great. And it will be yeah, great addition, uh, to, to this podcast.

And I think every musician should, should, um, listen to something like that, because it is true that most fans suck at this 

Malcom: [01:03:51] aptly named for sure. 

Benedikt: [01:03:54] Exactly. All right. Well, um, yeah, let's wrap it up. I think that's it. Next [01:04:00] episode will be, um, on a related topic and it will be about tracking your progress because we've mentioned it part of.

I'm not being too hard on yourself. And your band mates is actually keeping track of what you've already achieved. Um, knowing what you still have to do, like keeping the big picture and there's ways to do that. There are tools that you can use. There's like techniques that you can use. So we're going to talk about how to actually track your progress and, um, how to keep everyone on the same page, how to know at all times what's still left to be done and how long it will take and all that stuff.

So, yeah, next episode, we're going to be all about that right off. Okay. See you next week. Thank 

Malcom: [01:04:39] you for listening. Thanks for listening.