TSRB Podcast 057 - What's Good Enough_ - The Minimum Requirements For A Great Sounding DIY-Recording - PT I

[00:00:00] Malcom: [00:00:00] We could release this and people aren't going to be like, this sounds bad. Or this sounds DIY, hopefully, right? Like that's really a goal that we don't want it to sound DIY. We don't want people to think about it. Good enough means that the people hear the song and they hear the song. Not that it was helpful.

Benedikt: [00:00:16] This is the self recording band podcast. The show where we help you make exciting records on your own, wherever you are, DIY stuff. Let's go.

Hello and welcome to. The self recording fan podcast. I am your host than at a time. And I'm here with my friend and cohost, Matt KOMO and flood. How are you, buddy? 

Malcom: [00:00:37] I'm great, man. Thank you for asking. I, uh, had the pleasure of turning on the radio and hearing a song I mixed yesterday now. Right. But as I got home, so I was like, yes, that's like the best way to end the weekend.

Benedikt: [00:00:48] Awesome. Congrats. Was it the wet future song? 

Malcom: [00:00:51] It was, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, I guess we mentioned that last week. Didn't we? Yeah. Superstar how that's going. 

Benedikt: [00:00:56] Cool. To hear an update on that. So they are playing it. And [00:01:00] did they get feedback from listeners or anything? 

Malcom: [00:01:02] And I, you know, I haven't, I haven't checked in, I guess I should do that.

That's a good, good idea. But I liked it. 

Benedikt: [00:01:09] Yeah. That's I saw, after you told me about it, I saw their posts, I think because you shared it or I don't know, but I somehow came across their social and saw their, their posts about it and like, yeah. I'm so, so happy for, for them, especially knowing that they've worked with you and record stuff on their own and like, I think it Lucas one of the members.

Yep. Yeah, because I think he even wrote a message at some point, or I had, I was in contact with him because he listens to the podcast and stuff. So it was just nice to see that 

Malcom: [00:01:38] workout. Right. Right. And, and connection, you might not even be aware, but you might be aware of is that he's in shepherd, which you've worked with as well.

Benedikt: [00:01:45] And we both worked with yeah. Yeah. That's the full circle here. Yeah. Right. I didn't know exactly where, where I came across his name, but yeah. Awesome. 

Malcom: [00:01:53] There it is. Yep. And now I got them into the self recording bank community as well. I think so we're [00:02:00] Lucas. You're part of the team now you're stuck. 

Benedikt: [00:02:04] Yeah.

Yeah, totally awesome. Yeah. The shepherd guys shout out to them as well. This is also a fun one because they've worked with you and then they worked with me and they listened to the podcast. They record stuff on their own. They, um, I think they improve the recordings a lot with our help. I think we can say that.

And it's like super it's like, just so awesome to see how that stuff works and people getting great results. And now something being played on the radio. Super excited. 

Malcom: [00:02:30] Yeah. Yeah. It's totally great. Um, yeah, I've got a little. Tidbit from that song on the radio to tie into this episode, but maybe I think it's going to be in a part two section so 

Benedikt: [00:02:43] loud curious, but yeah.

Okay, cool. Can't wait for that. Yeah, we're doing a two-part serious this time or like mini that's serious. A two part episode. Um, bigger. How do 

Malcom: [00:02:54] you say series C 

Benedikt: [00:02:56] serious 

Malcom: [00:02:57] series series. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:03:00] Benedikt: [00:02:59] Um, I thought, I, I think I said serious. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:03:03] I think he did. Yeah. There's a surprisingly small number of things like that, considering that this is not your first language, so good job, man.

I screw up more words than you. So 

Benedikt: [00:03:18] thank you so much. Uh, yeah, I mean, I can say that my German accent, when I listened back to my podcasts or videos and stuff, but I think I'm doing pretty good. You're 

Malcom: [00:03:28] doing great. Doing great. 

Benedikt: [00:03:31] Thank you. Um, yeah. So two part episode, uh, this time again, because it's a pretty long list of stuff we have to cover.

Um, as we talk about, what do we talk about? We talk about minimum requirements. So what we mean is like the minimum stuff you need to. Make sure you have when he comes to, um, tracks your record, um, minimum requirements when he comes to you performance or like technical things you need to do. [00:04:00] So all the boxes you absolutely need to do check.

Um, if you want to make like a, a decent sounding record and like maybe work with, uh, with a pro mixer. So, um, These are the things we as mixers ask for. If, if someone wants us to make, uh, to give them a great sounding end result, basically these things have to be done. 

Malcom: [00:04:19] Yeah. So where the idea for this episode came was bands have been recording themselves and then sending them their tracks to Benny and I for mixing and, uh, for some of these guys in particular, This fellow chase Spencer I'm working with right now.

Uh, he has cut an album with me. I was like a more high budget album in the studio with me in the past. So now he's trying to do a DIY thing. And his big question is like, is this going to be like, are these tracks gonna, are they good enough? And I was able to look at them and say, yes, these aren't good enough.

And then he was like, what is good enough mean? Is it awesome or is it just good enough? [00:05:00] And I'm like, it's good enough, man. Um, so, and good enough. Isn't bad. Um, like, you know, like, I think a lot of people always want to strive for perfection, but there is a certain bit of reality that has to come and smack ya that you're probably not able to do as good of a job as a professional engineer with decades of experience in a world-class recording studio.

It's probably, probably not going to happen. Right. So you have to aim for good enough. Um, and you know, good enough might be the best you're able to get no matter what in the environment and gear and just situation you're in with experience and stuff. So good enough can mean different things. But for me, when I'm hearing good enough, I mean, like we could release this and people aren't going to be like, This sounds bad, or this sounds DIY hopefully, right?

Like that's really a goal. We don't want it to sound DIY. We want it to sound. We don't want people to think about it. Um, so good enough means that the people hear the song and they hear the song. [00:06:00] Not that it was self recorded. Um, and in theory, that means it could go on the radio or something, but it should sound like a professional release.

Um, will, would there be a difference if you had the big budget? Probably, but unless you actually had that, you don't know what that looks like. Um, so if you hit this good enough, Mark, this like floating little bar, you have to, you know, have to be this high to ride. Um, the, if you hit that and there's nothing, no other like context for what this, you know, $10,000 version of that song would have looked like.

It's good enough and people are going to love it no matter what. Right. Um, so it's all about hitting that level of quality and there definitely is a certain level. And if you don't hit that, then it starts to sound more DIY and, and like we're a DOI recording podcasts, but we want it to sound really good.

Benedikt: [00:06:52] Yes. Yes. There's also this thing where I think. A couple of years back, I would have mixed everything [00:07:00] that someone would send me because I just needed gigs. And like, I just didn't think about it too much. I was like, um, you know, that the Billy Decker thing have audio we'll mix. That was like pretty much like that, you know, but, um, it's amazing.

As you, as we, as mixers, move on without it careers and they get better. We also, there comes a point where we need to think about what we actually want to work with, because if someone sends us stuff and even after we've mixed and mastered it, it still sounds clearly DIY or like a demo or not professional.

Our name is going to be on that. And it's like, yeah, there's this point where we also have to decide if, if, if it's a, if we want to be, um, on that record and B if it's fair to sell our services to a person, knowing that they're not going to get a really, really great result. So I had this, I have this all the time, basically where people hit me up and they sent me their demos, or they were all recordings and I'm like, Hmm.

I could [00:08:00] take that and they would probably pay, but I would sell them a product that is not going to be really good and it will cost them a lot of money. So it's probably in their best interest to just keep practice and not doing it at this point or trying it themselves. And, yeah, I don't know, but yeah, it's like not everything is ready to be mixed and it's worth paying a lot of money for, and, um, it's, it's our job also to be just honest, I think then, and say to people that.

Man it's like, wait a couple of weeks or a couple of months or a year, or I don't know. And then come back or try to do it yourself this time. And it's tough sometimes, but it's just, it's just the reality. Um, and if you don't want to run into that, if you don't want to have a mixer say that to you, you should pay attention and do the things we tell you now in this episode, that's basically, yeah, it's basically it.

And you're totally right there is this threshold when it starts to be. Worth paying for worth putting in the effort, because then you can also expect the result you were hoping for. If you're [00:09:00] below that threshold, you can only hope and sometimes it will end up costing you a lot of money and effort and time.

And you're still not going to get anywhere with that 

Malcom: [00:09:08] because if you do send tracks that aren't good enough to a mixer, like either of us, it will come back insanely better. But it will never be good enough. It won't hit that, that level. Right. So, um, and of course it's important to think, uh, as the band, as the producer, if you're recording yourself, somebody in the band, the producer, as we have an episode on, uh, What is good enough to you guys as well, right.

Um, you have to find that kind of like line of like what you're aiming for, um, and have a realistic expectation, I think as well, because maybe you're you're good enough is only that like top 1% of all recording quality and maybe there's a wake-up call. You're not going to hit it without. Some serious cashflow.

Benedikt: [00:09:54] That's what it basically comes down to is like your expectations have to match your recordings and [00:10:00] the effort you put into it and stuff like that. So good enough is like a, it's not a fixed thing. It's like, it depends on the, on the project and your goals and everything. But what I meant is like, I want, I always want to make sure I can give the person what they were hoping to get and I can help them achieve what they were hoping to achieve.

And if I already know that I'm not going to be able to do that with the source material, I need to tell them if they're like, we know this is not good, not really good, but we want it that way. And we only do it for our self actualization. I mean, okay. We can talk, I'm bound to do it, you know, but if you, if it sounds like that, but you want to be on the radio, we have a problem.

So, yeah, that's, um, that's the thing it just has to match. And like, sometimes you have to convince people that what they're doing is actually good enough already. That also happens like with the example that you, you said when someone who's used to. Work professionally on their songs. Now they want to do it themselves.

And they just don't know where the bar is actually. Or when someone who's just really talented, really good. Who's been [00:11:00] practicing for years, but they have no, I've never gotten like outside feedback and they just don't know where they're at. I had this, this morning, I had a coaching call with, uh, uh, with a person who is doing a children's songs, actually like rock, rock songs or Scots.

It was like Scott, Scott, punk, rock songs for children. Right. And, um, He said she's doing some stuff for German television and YouTube and stuff. And he, yeah, he, he booked the coaching with me and, uh, it was pretty awesome. What he did already. It sounded pretty cool. There were some minor things that I tried to help him with, but it was pretty good actually, but he was unsure about that, I guess, because he's heard it so many times and he was not objective anymore.

And like, Sometimes in that situation, you need some guidance maybe where good enough actually is what that actually means. If you've checked all the boxes and then if you send it off for mixing, uh, you can, you can rest assured that it will work. Yeah. Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:11:58] definitely. Yeah, really. We're [00:12:00] talking about for good enough for this episode.

It's that again, going back to people are going to hear it and they're going to hear the song and think it's awesome. Right? Like that's really what we're going for. Um, so good enough is going to mean that there's nothing in the recording that is drawing attention to the recording, I guess. Um, so that, I think that's kind of the context for the rest of these episodes is like, keep that in mind.

Um, Because we're trying to tell you the minimum requirements and we're, we're basing our examples on. Kind of common situation. So, you know, like limited channels and then would have gear and undesirable rooms, you know? Um, and it's totally possible. So yeah. Uh, I think we should probably jump, jump into drums.

Benedikt: [00:12:44] Absolutely. So I just want to add one more thing before we start. And that is, we are focusing on the technical things, like things related to sound and like. The gear you're using and how are you using it? And like performance, like stuff that happens in the recording process. [00:13:00] And we're not like addressing production arrangement and writing as much because that would be like we could do a series with 10 episodes, probably if we would include that.

Because that, that is, I think the most common problems are not actually in the recording, but before that, it's the, pre-production the writing, the arranging that stuff. But we're not covering that right now. We just assume you've done your homework. You assume you've done. Pre-production you, we assume you've written good songs that you're happy with.

The arrangement is there. And now that you've come to track it, like that's what we assume for these episodes. 

Malcom: [00:13:32] Absolutely. And these are all really common things that both of us encounter. Every day from mixing tracks, it gets sent to us. So these are like really like the things we want to drive home, because if we do this and they get fixed before they reach us.

That gets you going to, like, these will be awesome. That's all we need. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like really speaking from experience and all of these points. Yeah. All right. So, uh, [00:14:00] the drum situation, we're kind of sticking with, at least for most of this is eight channels, which is kind of a common cause that's like, you know, that's as big as an interface comes, usually I think, right.

Um, there's like eight preamps on it. So if you have that. You can do drums. We're going to touch on four channels, I think probably, um, but eight channels, you can record drums. So that's kind of the situation right now. And if you, if you have a two channel interface, I would say don't record drums. 

Benedikt: [00:14:29] Yeah.

Agreed. Yep. Some people have these digital desks these days with like 16 or more inputs. Now, if you have that and can use it as an interface. Awesome. You can do. Yep. We can record it. Great drums, but like with eight channels, you're, you're good. That's the minimum requirement to record real drums, I'd say.

Malcom: [00:14:45] Yeah, definitely. Um, so yeah, and if you're one of those people without your options are program drums, or go to a studio for drums, um, you know, like rent a real space and get it done there. Um, but there's still going to be, even if that's your plan, lots of valuable stuff to [00:15:00] still make sure. Happens is coming.

So stay tuned. Um, so you got eight channels. I think the first thing is what do you Mike, like what, what gets priority with those eight channels? You have to choose how to spend those eight 

Benedikt: [00:15:13] credits. Yes. Um, so you could, I mean, I, I'm wondering because you put here consider recording just symbols. I want to address that first because you could also like go really in-depth into all the details with the symbols.

If you have using a lot of symbols, you could write the, you could make the Hyatt, the ride, um, th the crashes, a China splash, whatever you have, you could close Mike all of these and put a pair of overheads up and use your inputs that way. And then program the shells that could be an 

option 

Malcom: [00:15:44] or record the shells, and then re move all the mix for the symbols, right?

Like that's outside of the box ideas there. Um, yes. I don't know if we should really get into that because it's such a technical, like, how would you do that kind of thing? Even just running the doll. Um, but uh, just [00:16:00] wanted to, I thought it was worth mentioning. That's why. 

Benedikt: [00:16:01] Yeah, totally. I wanted just to just bring it up because I think if you're going to program drums, realistic selling symbols are often the most problematic thing to do for people.

Well, the hardest thing to do. So recording symbols and programming, the rest can often be a solution here, but, um, yeah, let's say you want to record real drums with eight channels. I'd prioritize. And if symbols are not the priority, if you want to record everything, I'd prioritize, definitely kick and snare.

Um, so I always want to have one kick mic, and that's probably a kick inmate because it's the most defined, like you want to have the attack and you want to have a clear. A clear trigger. Also, if you want to use samples later, so kick out might sound great, but it's going to be harder to use as a trigger.

It's going to be less defined. It's going to have more bleeds. So a Mike inside the cake. Definitely. And then another mic on top of the snare. Yeah. So those two are the most important. Then, um, okay, cool. Then I'd say a pair of overheads [00:17:00] is the next priority, just as an image of the whole kit and also symbol mix, but not only that, but also like the image of the whole thing.

Yeah. So 

Malcom: [00:17:07] now that's yeah, a pair. So we're at four channels use, so we got half of them. 

Benedikt: [00:17:12] Yeah. And then I'd say, I'd agree with you here. That it's I do. Tom's if you have to let's let's assume you have set with two Toms. I make those. And also quick thing, if you know, you only have eight channels, I'd try to reduce the drum kit itself because yes, many drummers are used to having, but they don't really need them.

They just never questioned it. So, yeah. Just try and like, just see if you can play your parts with just two times instead of four and you save two channels already. And for most situations, I'm going to be honest for most situations, this is going to be enough. I seen so many drummers set up insane kids and then using most of the stuff, like once on the record.

So yes, just reduce the stuff you're using a which forces you also too. I think [00:18:00] sometimes that results in better planning and better parts, it forces you to think feels through better and like. Yeah, I'd do that first. Then I would make the two Toms. I would probably end up with a rectum and a floor term.

I would make those. So you'd be at six 

Malcom: [00:18:12] mikes. Yep. Now you've got two more. So this is where it gets 

Benedikt: [00:18:15] tricky. Yeah, exactly. Um, I probably, I mean, it's totally about priority then and what you, what you think is important. I probably skipped a kick out and snare bottom. You don't really need it. I'd probably skip high hats except for.

If it's like a very quiet, very, um, but very detailed high head part that you need that you definitely need, um, where you're not getting enough detail to the overheads. That could be the case for my mic, but most of the time there'll be enough Hyatt in the overheads. Yeah. So I probably. Because I always liked these unique things and character things.

I probably use the two channels for room mix or some center of the kit mic, or a mano [00:19:00] overhead or an a second pair of overheads. I don't know. I don't know. It was just anything. Yeah. Like, yeah, exactly. Like. I think with a kick snare, two Toms and a pair of overheads, you've got the basics. And then the other two mikes I would use to fill in whatever's missing or at character, depending on the room you have, if you are in a very, very great sounding room, it would be a shame to not record it.

Right. If the room is boring, then you could maybe do a high at Michael whatever. But. Depends, but I go for room and character first, I think. 

Malcom: [00:19:32] Yeah, I think I agree. Um, so a little recap on that for listeners kick snare, Tom, Tom overheads, like we've essentially, we've closed Mike, all of our shell drums already.

Now there's something. Close to each one of those drums. Um, and then we've got an overheads which is going to capture our symbols and just kit in general. So now we've, we've got those couple more channels and it's just about choosing what to prioritize. Um, I like to think of it from [00:20:00] the song. Like that's what I've been trying to tell people to do these days.

Anyways, it's like, It's the high hat, like just outrageously important for the group. Then we should probably have a mic on it, you know? Um, if there has to be a third Tom, like that's just mandatory then. Yeah. We're going to throw it up like that, Tom. Um, and then you've got one channel left and you can just decide what's what's important from there kind of thing.

So. It's all about. What's important to the song, um, and what needs to be there. And, and then just make that call. I really do like that. You pointed out that if your room just doesn't sound great, then why would you have a room mic grabbing this garbage? Right. Get it on something closer. Um, it would be fantastic.

Uh, something I do see happen is that people will maybe have a mic on a Tom because they're used to that Tom being there and then I don't even play it. And that's a bummer. So take off that, Tom, get it literally out of the room because it's just causing noise. You've used a channel on it and like, even. I would argue that a lot of songs could have [00:21:00] the Tom's overdub.

Like if you're going to overdub anything, Toms are really easy because like, um, they, they eat up channels, especially if you want to have a bunch of them and they don't get played very often. So, you know, if they're like only like getting hit once in the whole song or like once before each course or something like that.

And they're just sitting there ringing through the rest of the recording because Toms do resonate while you're hitting all the other drums. They just create a lot of noise that I think they should be just pulled off and. Maybe just overdubbed. Um, 

Benedikt: [00:21:27] and Matt, yeah, sorry, go ahead. I was going 

Malcom: [00:21:30] to say that's a great argument for the four channel setup.

This is gonna make me think that four channel is more possible than I believed. Cause you could do kick snare over at overhead and then overdub your Tom's on top of that. Pretty easy. Yeah. And you could, you could really pull off something pretty cool with four channels. 

Benedikt: [00:21:45] Absolutely agreed. And what I would even try to do, what I would suggest is you could, Mike, the Tom's like you do kicks near overhead overhead, and you make the Toms, you record, you don't really overdub them.

I mean, you can do [00:22:00] that if that works, but you can also just record samples of them in different, like. Velocities, and then just look at your overhead tracks and just see where the Tom hits are and just put samples there. Basically put your, do it manually, like just, um, trigger your Toms from the overheads or like put the manually there, if it's just a couple of fields and you can, you won't even have to play those fields.

You could just record samples and put them there. Right. So if you're not able to pull it off, like sometimes that can be really difficult to overdub a drum stuff. So, but yeah, both is both as possible, but. You wouldn't even have to play it. You could just probably record samples of your Toms and put them where they are supposed to go.

Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:22:38] That's definitely an option. Um, I'm going to steer us away from that because we're getting dangerously into a different topic of like recording hacks. But so really the only takeaway you need to concern yourself with there is that we really made sure we close Mike. All of the drums that are actually being played.

Um, and okay, tough love on drummers here. If you have three times and you don't have enough channels, don't [00:23:00] talk yourself into just still playing that. Tom. That's not Mike's, that's a garbage idea. You should just take the time out. Like I'm mixing a song literally right now where the floor Tom is not miked and the other two rack Toms are, and I'm like, yeah, this part sounds like shit, because it's all on the rack, Tom, Tom, it's not mine.

Like what were you thinking? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I've seen that more than once, so, yep. Drummers, if you can't make it, get rid of it. That's my, my opinion. 

Benedikt: [00:23:28] Yeah, same, same with like even worse. I think with like weird effects, symbols that don't have a close mic on them and there's no way to really replace or trigger them.

That's often the case. They have some symbol on the far rights outside of what the overheads will cover. And there no close mic. And then you get revision requests would like bring that China up. And I'm like, I can't, there's no mic on it. Like it's, you know, 

Malcom: [00:23:52] So, sorry. Um, yeah, and again, that's like, you know, that like little weird splash that happens once in the song, just overdub [00:24:00] it.

It's fine. Make it sound awesome. 

Benedikt: [00:24:02] Okay, cool. So I totally agree. You can do more with four channels than you might think. So. Fortunately, this kicks near overheads or kick snare Toms, and then overdub symbols, or. Whatever it is tons of options you're still with for Mike's. Um, let's get to like technical engineering pitfalls.

Um, so let's say you've decided what makes you going to use and what the drum kit's going to look like? What can go wrong now? Okay. 

Malcom: [00:24:26] Yeah. So we've said this before, but new skins are amazing. Um, and the best thing you can do for a drum session, um, Please at least get that snare done a fresh skin on a snare.

It really just makes all the difference, um, so much. Yeah, definitely. Uh, being able to tune it though. That's that's the counterpart of that, right? If you can't get a drum to sound good, it won't sound good. No matter what your mixer does. Um, so it has to sound good being hit, and that means the skin and the tuning combo and how it's played of course have to be 

Benedikt: [00:24:59] happening.

[00:25:00] Common question by the way that I get a lot, yes. Also replace the resident scans because the resident heads, because if they've been on the kit for a long while you won't be able to tune them properly anymore, they will be like stretched in a weird way. They won't be like. Uh, it's, it's, it's going to be very hard to get them into and they need to be in tune with the better head in order to the whole drum to come to life and to sound good and to get rid of like weird unmusical overtones and stuff like that.

So, yeah, I mean, better heads is better than nothing, but still if at all possible. Um, do all of them with the exception of the kick drum resonant head, I don't really care about that. Um, That's just me maybe, but I don't really care about it. It's so, um, it, most of the time it's so loose anyway. And, um, the kids from school general, but better ahead also, because of the attack with the exception of the kick drum, a resonant hat, I would change everything.

Definitely. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:25:55] Yeah. I mean, if you, if you can. Absolutely. Um, I think there's no excuse to [00:26:00] not have a fresh snare. On each song. Um, cause they're cheap. I mean, yeah. I mean you could get, I think you can get through a day with a, uh, uh, a fresh in their head. Like no problem actually. Um, I, I mean obviously if you can change it every song.

Fuck. Yeah. But yeah, but it's okay if you don't. Um, yeah. It's like, and yeah, I've seen people. Play some, I mean, okay, this is gonna stop. Change that snakeskin 

Benedikt: [00:26:24] pick the right ones. Um, yeah. Also like if you don't know what to buy, get some advice here, get some feedback, maybe have a call with your mixer or like some people, some person who knows what they're talking about, because you might pick the wrong stuff for your genre.

Or for the sound you're going for you might've read something and assumed it will be right for what you're trying to do, but then, but it turned out to be the complete opposite I've had that happen as well. So it was skin choice. You have to know that. And that's the last thing I say about skins here.

You have to know that like 80% or so of your drum tone will come from the skin or more even like the shell themselves, people [00:27:00] always focus on what's near you use what Toms do use, what, which kit the actual shells matter much less than the hats. Most of the sound of the drum sound comes from. The stick, hitting the head, the skin, and like even crappy kids can sound great with new skins tuned properly.

And the most expensive kits will sound like shit with the wrong skins or old skins. So if they're not tuned. Right. So yeah, really, 

Malcom: [00:27:26] yeah. Make that a priority skin drum skins are like the guitar cabinets of amps or of drums. Um, then, uh, Phase problems I think was probably actually like the second thing to like really pay attention.

So for, again, as mixers here, The big things that we really want to see is that we've got a close mic on each drum, right. That that's in play. Um, and then next thing is that our snare isn't screwed because if those two things happen, we have a lot of power as, as experienced mixers. We can do a lot with [00:28:00] those two things if they're met.

Um, so the really the biggest tip I have for that is just like measure off your overheads, um, from like the, the snare or the center of care, there's kind of varying. Spots, but, um, just, we have episodes on drums, go back and listen to them. But for now this is just a snare and make sure that distance to both overheads is the same.

That's really going to do a lot. And that makes a huge difference. Um, I hadn't really considered this before, but recently I got tracks from a guy and his interface. Doesn't have a polarity button on the preamps. So he can't correct the phase until it's in post. And that's a whole nother thing to learn how to do is like to render those changes in post.

Right. So it just means that I had to do it, but, uh, be aware of that, I think. Um, but make sure yeah. You measure override. So I think that's really important and that's something that gets missed. 

Benedikt: [00:28:49] Yeah, agreed. And, uh, real quick tip here, the center of your kid is usually not a straight lands where the kick drum, as many people think it's a line through the [00:29:00] center of the snare at the center of the kick drum.

So you're, if you're doing space pair overheads, for example, One will probably be somewhere over, like from drummer's perspective, somewhere on the left, over the crash or between the crash and hat's somewhere there. And the other one will probably be somewhere over the floor, Tom, or like float time and ride somewhere there.

So it's like, you want to make sure that the kick and snare, or at least the snare is in the center of the image. And oftentimes that means like, Yeah, you gotta it's it looks a little different than you might think. Probably so. Yeah, but just check out other episodes on that. We even have like a picture of that in the show notes and like all that stuff, but just make sure if you pan the overheads heart left and right.

Make sure the snares in the center, make sure you don't have weird comb filtering on the symbols. Like it shouldn't sound like a cheap MP3. You should get clear highs, clear top and from the symbols, um, no cancellation and kick and snare. It should be as centered as possible. That that's 

Malcom: [00:29:58] a great tip. [00:30:00] Yeah.

When you get the solid overheads and if you hear like the kick and it seems like it's coming out far left in the stairs coming to far, right. That's a really, really hard thing to make sound good in a mix because that's not how people hear drums. Yep. Um, and then, yeah, I think like last thing for technical stuff is just watch out for like weird rattling and stuff like that.

You know, just, uh, people aren't used to like, caring about that because they're just in like, you know, they're. They're jam spaces where everything rattles and, but in recording we care, right. So maybe something's loose on one of your symbol stands and it's just vibrant away or like your Tom leg is touching another simple stand and they like scraping against each other when it's played or some stuff like that.

Yeah. You know, the door vibrates or something like weird things happen. So just keep an eye out for him. We 

Benedikt: [00:30:42] can chair's squeaking, um, pebbles, sometimes the kick pedal can make weird noises sometimes. Hi. Yeah. Hi as well. Um, like radiators next to the kid that like do weird sounds and I've had all these things happen.

So, um, yeah, just check your room for, for stuff like [00:31:00] that and your gear as well. Yeah, definitely. Um, one more little pet peeve here, a little real quick, and that is the dampening. It goes along with the tuning, but I just need to say it because for whatever reason, people, many people seem to think that overtones or sustain on drums is generally a bad thing.

And that's not true. Like I've, I've, I've gotten so many over dampened over lead that drums, which are so hard to mix because they will cut through much of the sustain of a snap Snap-on for example, is going to get lost at the biggest anyways. So it's not going to be nearly as ringy as you think it is.

Once it's mixed. So I, yeah, you want to make, usually you want to make, it runs like loud and proud and like have some overtones have some tone to it. I don't know where that comes from. Maybe people are afraid of like, they don't want to end up with Saint anger's near or whatever, but I don't know where that comes from, but it's just, I've I've had that so often that people go.

To debt alone. Yeah. And I 

Malcom: [00:31:56] agree. I think it's when you're, you're like [00:32:00] focused listening, you're kind of prone to honing in on. On nodes. Right. Um, and, and like focused sounds and the ring of a drum is the thing that stands out the most. So we automatically think we need to attack it. Yeah. But it's the note, it's, it's an 

Benedikt: [00:32:15] important part of that sound for sure.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Don't kill all of that. Everything else is up to taste. 

Malcom: [00:32:20] So it's meant to be that his thing ever, 

Benedikt: [00:32:23] if you want to have like the seventies, whatever, you can throw a towel over your snare and this could work, so absolutely. It's up to you, but yeah. Um, just be, be intentional. Cool. Um, all right then performance related pitfalls with drums.

So, uh, the technical part is right. What can you do right or wrong when it comes to extra playing the drums? Because even more than in the skins, the sound is in your hands actually. And the drums hands. 

Malcom: [00:32:49] So something I've noticed since we started this podcast is that some people have taken to the DIY recording thing and dental define, and some people have had a little bit of a rougher learning curve.

And the [00:33:00] people that seem to do well have had studio experience. With a professional before. So they kind of know they have a better idea of what this, again, good enough level is, um, as far as their performances and as well as what editing can accomplish. Um, and so that that's, if you don't have any studio experience, that's just going to be a little bit, you're gonna have to work a little extra hard to figure that out.

Um, or we've recommended before, try and do a song with an engineer just to, or producer, just to get that experience, like treat it as a learning experience, um, more than anything. But, uh, another thing that you can do is like record your drums, for example, and then hire an editor and send it to them and get the feedback.

Right. Um, and, and that editor is going to be able to tell you like, Oh, I can't edit these. And like, okay, well that's, that's valuable feedback. Can we have to do a lot better? Um, then right. Uh, like that'll, that'll be a worthwhile [00:34:00] lesson. Absolutely. Um, and I mean, some editors are also really good at recording drums.

So you might get some tips on how you, how you did engineering them as well. Right. Which is great if that happens. Um, but get making sure they're played to that. Good enough level is obviously just hugely important. 

Benedikt: [00:34:18] Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. I just got distracted because your door opened itself in the background like 

Malcom: [00:34:24] ghosts.

No, it's just like a weird thing where a door opens or your door gets closed outside or upstairs somewhere. And this door opens. It's like an air.

Benedikt: [00:34:34] Uh, I was just, I just thought the cat came in or whatever. So 

Malcom: [00:34:38] often that's also the case animals entering the studio. 

Benedikt: [00:34:42] Okay, cool. Um, yeah, but I totally agree. Um, many people just don't know what that good enough is again. And, uh, but getting that feedback can be very, very, um, valuable or is almost always valuable.

So. Do it with one song just maybe, and then, um, you'll you'll [00:35:00] you can take what you'll learn to the, and apply it to the other songs. Definitely. So, yeah. Play that's about like playing in time. I kind of, yeah, 

Malcom: [00:35:09] I think mostly it's about playing in time. Um, yeah. Let's let's we're going to hit that point, so.

Benedikt: [00:35:15] Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, um, whatever you do, edit your drum performance. Or have it edited before moving on to new instrument. That's also, when we talk about editing, we need to mention that again. That's also a really common mistake where people would do all the drums and then do all the guitars right away, or the bass or whatever.

Um, if you're smart, you're doing guitarists and then the bass, but yes, 

Malcom: [00:35:38] don't skip that step. It's like, it just still happens all the time. And it's so important. 

Benedikt: [00:35:44] Um, do you just agree to my way of doing it? Did you realize that. I just said, if you're smart, do the guitars first and then the basics. No, it did not have the zoned out.

Okay. That happened. It happened buck. The agreed movie. Finally do 

Malcom: [00:35:56] actually I've got an attitude now. Yeah. Whatever. 

[00:36:00] Benedikt: [00:36:00] No, um, yeah, it doesn't matter if it's do based on guitars. First, we have our opinions here. And if you want to go listen to two that you listen to another episode, we've been talking about that, but whatever you do first, make sure you do it to edit it.

Rums. That's so important because if you don't. You're going to end up having to edit everything else even more because you're going to play to those not in time drums and it's going to be a mess. So, um, yeah, edit first, then move on. So. Timing is one thing that can go wrong and getting feedback. Having it professionally edited is one way to solve this and obviously like practicing and playing well.

Um, but also even if you nail the timing, there's a couple of things that still can go wrong. And for example, there could be off hits, like where the drummer hits, like misses a hit entirely or hits a drum. Uh, off-center and sounds really different or, yeah. Um, yeah, th that's basically the main things that can happen [00:37:00] or like you hit the rim accidentally instead of the hats stuff like that.

Just listen for those things and try to correct those either with a sample or just punching. Yeah. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:37:10] I would say ideally, it's something that gets solved in the performance part. Um, so yeah. A lot of drummers when they're getting started out into recording are very focused on timing because, you know, you kind of grow up like terrified of the metronome and then eventually you face it and get good at it.

Um, so you're really focused on, um, am I playing in time? And that is so important and fantastic obviously, but making sure that you're hitting the drum and that it's sounds like the same drum every single time you hit it is the thing that separates session drummers from the rest. It's like their ability to be consistent in both tone and dynamics.

Um, and, and that is like really like the, the magic sauce of a believable drum performance is like how they hit that is so 

Benedikt: [00:37:57] musical agreed a hundred [00:38:00] percent agreed. There's this phenomenon. You can try that yourself. Um, and you should actually, I think test is to see that it's true. If you like set up a drum kit and tune it properly.

And my kid and like, Everything, so that it sounds great when you played or when the person in the room plays it and leave everything like record one person with that wrong kid, leave everything as it is, get another person in and have them play on the same kit and record it. And then compare, you will have two completely different sounding results just because everyone plays so differently.

And a PR a really, really good drummer can make a shitty drum kit sound usable sometimes, or at least like not like. It, it, it shouldn't be a shitty drunk kid, but a really good drummer on a crappy kid is better than a bad drummer on a good kid and so much so. And like they, they just know how to, how to work with a kid, how to respond to how it sounds, how to hit it.

That it sounds great. That's why, um, for example, when sample libraries are [00:39:00] being made, it's not that the engineer or just some random person hits. The, the shells for like tracking samples, they get good drummers in the room to do that. And you think, okay, you just have to have to hit the snare or hit the Tom or whatever, but it's not as simple as that, like a good drummer will hit it differently and they, they get great drummers into the room to hit a snare a thousand times for a sample library.

Just because they know it's going to sound better if that person does it. Yep, 

Malcom: [00:39:27] absolutely. So that is, that is so hugely important. It's not just timing. That makes a good drum performance. It's also just like this amazing accuracy. And again, that's in tone. So tone being how you hit it, uh, and, and exactly where you hit the drum is kind of like the biggest decider I think is like velocity plus aim.

Um, but that I now mix is the other thing. Cause like some people will hit us near once and it's quiet and the next time they hit it, it's twice as loud and that's not intentional. And that's like really, really hard to mix again, we're [00:40:00] coming out this, like, if you want us to turn this into a mix that really hits that good enough level, these are the things we need.

Yeah. This will do so much. 

Benedikt: [00:40:09] Totally. Like the consistency is key and also. I think like one of the biggest things for me, and I appreciate all the time is the symbol to shell balance. So when a person like a really good drummer will control the symbols as much as needed, like crashes can be, have to be explosive.

Of course, sometimes. But most of the time. Hi, as for example, a ride symbols need to be controlled throughout the part, but the snare and the kick need to be hit hard, nonetheless. So they have a very heavy left-hand sometimes in a very controlled right hand and many hobby drummers or like, Um, beginners do the opposite.

They will hit the crap out of the symbols with the right hand and like barely hit the snare. So that's that either way for, for some beginner [00:41:00] drummers and, uh, that just doesn't sound good and introduces all sorts of problems also in post with bleed and everything. So, um, the consistency symbol to shell balance, the angle, the fact that you have to hit it, um, a certain spot on the, on the drum skin for it to sound the best.

Um, some people bounce off the snare, others like big into it. That will sound completely different. Like all these things just pay attention to what you do. And then if you don't, if it leads to results that you don't like just practice and maybe, um, wait with the recording until you, you got that. Right.

You know, it's just so, so important. Definitely. 

Malcom: [00:41:38] Yeah. I entirely agree. Uh, something that came to mind. Well, You were saying that is the idea of like failing fast. And that is just another way of saying, do one song at a time and, and learn from each one. Um, I love when, like these bands that have been recording themselves, ask me about their tracks and I'm like, Oh yeah, I can just give you some [00:42:00] feedback.

The next one will be like, make my life even easier. Like, hell yeah, I'm going to do that. That's a, that's a good use of my time giving you feedback on what you did. Um, so that. Yeah, in alternative, say the band had recorded the whole demo or, I mean a whole album of 10 songs before they asked for feedback, then whatever they screwed up on the song, one is going to be there for all the songs.

And that's a bummer. So the fail fast mentality is like the best attitude you can have in DIY recording. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And keep in mind, that means that you have to be okay with the first song, not being as good as the last song on a technical standpoint. I mean, um, you know, maybe songwriting that's that's up to you 

Benedikt: [00:42:41] guys.

Yeah. Yeah, totally agreed. Totally agreed. Keep the, the feedback loops short always. Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:42:48] definitely. 

Benedikt: [00:42:49] Um, yeah. Um, I just wanted to add that I did a video actually about the consistency and also the, the shell and, um, symbol balance. In the [00:43:00] self-regarding band Academy, our, um, course on the recording, there is a video where, and I'm not a good drummer by all means.

Like, I, I can play drums a bit, but I don't consider myself a great drummer, not at all. But I did that experiment myself. I got behind the drum kit and I set up a S uh, an SM 58 in the middle of the room. Like the first thing I could grab, I'd just put it there on a stand a couple of feet away from the kit.

And I just played. Two different ways. I tried to play uncontrolled like with loud symbols and a pretty weak snare. And then I tried to really focus on that balance. I tried to hit the snare consistently and the kid consistently in the Toms, and I tried to control the symbols. Um, and I compared the results and I made a whole lesson in the course about that.

And I was myself. I was pretty surprised about the difference and I was also surprised how balanced a kid can sound with a single mic in front of it on a stand. If the playing is. Okay. At least like, it really, it sounded like a drum kit. If that didn't sound too bad with just a [00:44:00] 58, a couple of feet away, I was surprised myself, but it really worked cool.

So, um, I just wanted to say that I did the experiment myself and it's, it's crazy. The difference it makes also makes me think how much more usable rooms, a room mikes and overhead mics are. If you pay attention to that. So. Right. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Cool. Um, another thing that I found, I don't know that that's the thing I want to ask you, Malcolm, if you have made that experience as well, sometimes when people record large chunks and do not like do, if they don't do like individual parts, but record half a song or the whole song or whatever.

Sometimes they start with a lot of energy and they hit the snail hard and the kick hard and everything sounds great, but then they kind of forget about it and focus on other things or their mind goes somewhere else. And then you notice, and even I see it sometimes visually you see the scenario gets quieter throughout a part and loses all the energy.

They somehow forget that they have to hit it hard. So also that's, that's also part of dynamics and consistency for me. And I want to always make sure that the dynamics are [00:45:00] intentional and not just because you. Lost the energy over time. Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:45:04] Um, again, uh, when you're recording yourself, you have this advantage that you can look at.

The the wave form and literally just see how consistent you are. Um, a good drummer looks pretty symmetrical on across the way for him. Uh, so there's your tip. It's pretty visually accurate. Um, what's going on there? Yeah, that's a great 

Benedikt: [00:45:22] suggestion. Benny. So you have the same, you've made the same experience.

Like 

Malcom: [00:45:27] definitely. Um, I, yeah, I didn't really think about that in the DIY thing because when I'm not doing DIY and I'm actually recording somebody, playing trumps, that's something I'm. Yeah. That's why I like punching, you know, like maybe we punch the second half of the song, so you can hit that full energy kind of thing.

Same with vocals, you know, um, I find vocal full steaks or full takes with vocalists. Don't generally work out because of that same thing. Like energy is just not sustainable throughout an entire song. Um, Always sometimes it can't be, but, uh, yeah, so different topics, but yeah, definitely [00:46:00] great advice. Um, don't be afraid to punch a part way through, you know, if you're recording yourself, like literally just you in the room, it's kind of tricky to do puncheons cause it's like, it's just a lot of work to run transport at the same time.

Um, so if you can't do it, just really focus on being consistent. Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:46:17] And have someone else in the room. I think who focuses as well, because you might not notice if you're just on your own, so yeah. It's a thing that also happens when people get distracted or when people have to focus very much on one thing that happens also a lot with like for example, metal drummers.

When there is a part that's supposed to sound very big, like a breakdown, w I dunno, like a heavy hop halftime part, whatever. And they are playing a kind of complicated kick drum pattern. For example, they are focusing on their feet so much that they completely forget how to correctly hit the snare. And like, you have this part that's supposed to sound huge.

And you, there has to be this big snare in the part. But they just barely hit it because they're all focused on their feet. And if no one else is in the room that who notices that, like [00:47:00] this could just go unnoticed. And it's sometimes the part before that might sound bigger than the actual big part because of that, because you just completely forgot that that scenario is also important in that part, for example.

Malcom: [00:47:11] Yep. Nope, definitely. Good advice. Um, yeah, I think the last thing I want to leave people with, and this is not just for drums, but, uh, When you hit the last note of a song and it's like this note that has to fade out for however long, hold it for much longer than you think you need to. I don't know why, but DIY bands always get lazy and just stop the note eventually, or like, Stand up and drop their drum sticks.

And it's like, that's not nearly enough for me to like, make a smooth fade out on your song. Um, so, uh, yeah, like symbol decay, like hit your last stuff, hold your breath and just sit there for way too long. 

Benedikt: [00:47:48] So it'd be like, I have a really fun story. Quick story to tell here. I once recorded drums in, um, in the middle of the, of, of a house, basically an open space in the middle of the house where the [00:48:00] stairs go up.

Um, okay. Yeah. And w it's not a great, so we put the drum kit there. Um, we recorded it and like, it was some part that was pretty complicated. And we were trying this part for hours. I dunno, like we did 78 takes of this part. I don't know. And like, Then at some point, like after hours of trying to nail the take, he eventually nailed it and it was awesome.

And there was the last symbol hit and it was supposed to be the less hit of the song and like the decay and everything. And he hit the symbols and his dad was standing in the same room watching him play and like two seconds after he hit the last symbol of his, that goes, yeah. Because he was so happy that he finally nailed it and we all just slowly turned our heads at him and they looked at him and are you fucking serious?

Malcom: [00:48:49] You know, ruined 

Benedikt: [00:48:50] it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, so you could also punch it in the last symbol and like save it, but it was this moment we were all like, yes. And then he completely ruined it by [00:49:00] screaming to the sustain. 

Malcom: [00:49:02] Amazing. 

Benedikt: [00:49:03] And he was like, he was very, very. Sorry for that afterwards. Like he didn't realize until we told him and then he was like, Oh, damn sorry.

Malcom: [00:49:12] Yeah. So we felt bad for her. Yeah. I think it's just one of those things when you're sitting in the chair or on the drum throne or whatever, it feels like it's already been a long time. So you're like, this must be enough, but it rarely is enough. I don't know. It's like another 10 seconds please. 

Benedikt: [00:49:28] Yeah. Yes, for sure.

That actually I've never really, I never really thought about that. That we should put that in an episode, but it's so true. It's almost. Every day. I want to record almost that some guitars sustain or some symbols or whatever, it's just not long enough. It's almost every time 

Malcom: [00:49:41] I would say guitars. You're the most guilty of this.

Yeah. You're just holding some fricking sustained note and then you just get lazy and it's quiet. Yeah, 

Benedikt: [00:49:49] exactly. The best part is when they like hit the court again, or like there's some weird noise 

Malcom: [00:49:55] at the end, instead of just letting it at least. Yeah. Play sweet child of mine or something. Yeah. 

[00:50:00] Benedikt: [00:50:01] All right.

Yeah. Good one. So yeah, let, let it fade out until you don't hear anything anymore. 

Malcom: [00:50:06] So there's, there's a lot in there guys. Uh, we realized that, but like the, the big takeaway for me is that the close mics that are being played all have their, their close mic on them. Like, I mean, the shells that are all being played, like that's, that's so huge.

Um, and then yeah, if you get that in a pair of symbols and then you play it so damn well, we can make that sound awesome. Yes. 

Benedikt: [00:50:27] Agreed. 

Malcom: [00:50:28] All right. Cool. And yeah, next episode is going to be on guitars and bass and vocals keys. Those the rest probably. 

Benedikt: [00:50:34] Yes, exactly. And like drums are the most complicated thing to record always.

And so, uh, we started with that and a lot of the what's true for the bass will be true for the guitar as well. So we will combine that in the next episode. And get through that. And I want to leave you with one more thing here. Uh, I have a free thing for you, actually, a free gift, which is called the essential gear guide or essential DOR recording gear guide.

So, if you're talking [00:51:00] about minimum requirements and you don't even have your interface yet, or you don't know which microphones to use, or like stuff like that, um, I've made a PDF guide is called the essential gear guide and you get it. If you go to the self recording band.com/gear guide, I'm updating it regularly.

The last update spin a couple of months, I think, but it's still. Very valuable and true. And I'm going to update it soon again. And, um, it's just a list of things you need. If you want to record, it's like what the name says. So minimum requirements, it's all in there. It helps you not waste money, make good decisions by what you really need, avoid what you don't need and get a good starting point.

So you can implement all of what we taught you today. The self recording van.com/gear guide. We did miss one 

Malcom: [00:51:45] thing. Okay. Now I'm curious. What about microphones? Like, what's the good enough for gear. Um, and I don't know if you're going to just have the same opinion, but I personally think if you could just buy, like, Any starter pack, like the sure.

Starter pack drum making kit [00:52:00] comes in like a little plastic case. I don't like any of those mics, but they're good enough. 

Benedikt: [00:52:06] I agree. But I still always advise against buying these kits because I personally think picking and choosing individual mix is always better than those, like yes. They drum packs. Um, but like, if you're on a budget, of course these, at least they can serve as triggers.

So, yeah. So, yeah. Um, I'd rather deal with, maybe you get a pair of decent overhead. Mike's like the road, or like in the 200, $300 Euro category, like you could get usable.  

Malcom: [00:52:40] and there there's like the, the best reason to not do the drum set. Mike starter pack thing is that if you do it, Mike, by Mike, you're going to end up with an SM 57, which is going to be so helpful on everything else, you know, um, that kind of stuff, where you, you get, what's going to act like you save money.

By not going to the cheapest route kind of thing, but, [00:53:00] um, you don't even need to listen to us talk about this because it's going to be in that PDF that Benny just recommended. 

Benedikt: [00:53:04] Exactly. But I absolutely agree the ability to use these mags and other things. That's the main reason, actually, one of the main reasons why I advise against these kits, because if you think about it real quick, if you.

By an SM 57 and you can record everything with an essence 57. So if you only buy, take 10 57, you're good. Um, but like, um, if you, yeah, we're gonna end up with 57. You, maybe you buy something like an SM seven or a broadcaster, like a dynamic large diaphragm dynamic mic for the vocals. You can also use that as a kick mic.

Or on a Tom on a floor, Tom or whatever. If you buy one, a good large diaphragm condenser, you can use it as a room mic, or an acoustic guitars as a vocal mic. Whatever, if you get a pair of small diaphragm condensers, those can record anything. And these are Mike's that work on everything. So maybe a 57 large from condenser to small Dyer [00:54:00] from, and then another 57 or whatever.

And you good to go for almost everything. So, um, yeah, just but download that guide. It's all in there. Um, and if you already have one of these cheap mic sets, it can be. Good enough. If you have decent overheads, I'd say, 

Malcom: [00:54:15] yeah, the overheads are the trickiest thing to get past, but, uh, you know, really be careful about your placement.

And again, how you, um, play is going to make a huge impact on those overheads, like that shell to a symbol ratio that Benny was talking about earlier. Control 

Benedikt: [00:54:28] that yourself. I'd say, okay. One, one more sentence, because I'd say the minimum requirement, I just thought about the minimum requirement for a mic close mic on drums is it has to be able to take the level basically.

So any dynamic mic. Probably will do the job some better than others, but that's, that's basically my own mint. My only minimum requirement, I don't want to have distort a transience. I want to have a clear transient and that's basically it. So just grab a mic that can take the level and a pair of decent overheads and you good.

Yeah. [00:55:00] Right on. 

Malcom: [00:55:00] Awesome. 

Benedikt: [00:55:01] Great episode. See you next week. Bye. Thank you for listening.