Hiring amazing session musicians can take your productions to the next level or even save sessions that would otherwise lead to very poor results.
Also, as a self-recording musician you might be in a perfect position to offer playing on other people's records! If you're a great player AND a skilled recording engineer, maybe a session musician career might be a path you'd want to explore.
Here are some of the things we cover in this episode:
- How to find PRO session musicians
- Best practices for sending them tracks
- Hiring someone to replace a band member (ouch!)
- The importance of having a clear vision
- In person vs remote
- What to expect from session musicians
- Work for hire vs a feature
- Giving credit
- Communicating terms, expectations and boundaries in advance
Book A Free Coaching Call With Benedikt:
This episode was edited by Thomas Krottenthaler.
Benedikt's voice on this episode has been recorded with the Antelope Axino Synergy Core.
[00:00:00] Benedikt: I really want our community to collaborate like that. And it would be very cool to have a producer or a band who needs someone, uh, like to have them find someone in our community who can play whatever they are lacking or like just, Let's do that. Hello, and welcome to the self recording band podcast. I am your host Benedick time and I'm here with my friend and cohost Malcolm Owen flood. Hello. Malcolm. How are you?
[00:00:38] Malcom: Hello. I'm great, man. I just had a wonderful weekend on one of the Gulf islands near. With some really cool, famous people. It was awesome.
[00:00:48] Benedikt: Which famous people?
[00:00:49] Malcom: I, I think I'm allowed to say I was with Robert Bateman and Bristol foster and, and . So Robert Bateman is probably one of the most famous realist painters in the world, the [00:01:00] living painters in the world. And he's like 90 now. And. And yeah, just an incredible dude and his buddy Bristol fosters a very famous naturalist and pretty much what happened is they did this trip around the world, in the fifties, in a land Rover. They like categorized a land Rover and took it by boat from north America to the, you know, across the Atlantic. And then they ended up in South Africa in this thing. So like, like a trip, like you can't even imagine right.
[00:01:27] Taking And, uh, then in, in Africa they met and who is she's like the Jane Goodall of giraffes. She's, she's like the, like the, kind of like the original person to study at least Western Western study giraffes in the wild. And, and then, yeah, so they kind of made history during this thing. And then they all went on to become famous people in their own fields and they just had their first reunion in 30, 30 years. And we got to document the whole thing. It was an
[00:01:54] incredible weekend.
[00:01:56] Benedikt: I was about to say, now that the question is what, what the hell did you do there?
[00:01:59] Malcom: [00:02:00] Yeah.
[00:02:02] Benedikt: But you, you, you kind of answered it. You documented it.
[00:02:05] Malcom: be building and I mean like that, all of that happened in the fifties. So like, it really hasn't been that story hasn't really been told in like a present context in a, like a way that people can really watch now. So that's kind of the goal, I think, with the producers they've they want to have like a feature documentary telling that story of this amazing trip. Cause they saw, I mean, Th they could, they solve tribes that don't even exist anymore. And, and species that have gotten extinct since they did it. And it's just like, it's a different time. Very cool. So, great weekend. How about you Benny?
[00:02:37] Benedikt: Not so great. To be honest, I was just so sick. The kids are sick and we all got like, yeah. Kindergarten and school germs. And like, we are just, we've been battling that. But Yeah. it's been, it's been fun though as well, because we, we, they did long movie nights with the kids and Yeah. just relaxing
[00:02:57] and nothing spectacular. So [00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Malcom: Change it up. That's good. I have one gear talk. I want to bust in those episodes before we kick off our real topic, the new MacBook pros. What do you think?
[00:03:10] Benedikt: I was about to ask you if you already ordered one because
[00:03:13] Malcom: Did you?
[00:03:13] Benedikt: No, but I would, I would lie if I said, like, I haven't thought about it.
[00:03:17] Malcom: Yeah, it definitely reached my checkout box, but I did not click the order button
[00:03:22] Benedikt: No, me, me too. I. I think I will wait for like real life reviews. and like, I'll just see how it works for people. It seems though that this is the first generation of Mac book pros in a long time. That that's really that's just looks really cool. So I don't, I don't know. They, they just did, in my opinion, they did everything that people wanted from them. And that would, and they fixed the things people were complaining about, which is good news. So this, these new Mac books seem to have everything I would want from a MacBook. And mine is the, probably the shittiest. One of all [00:04:00] like the 2018 one that I have on paper is great. Like the specs are insane, but it has so many flaws that I don't know that I would really love to have one of those new ones.
[00:04:11] Malcom: Yeah.
[00:04:12] Benedikt: But at the same time, it's just still works. And it's a powerful computer and I don't want to buy a new one after three years. So we'll
[00:04:18] Malcom: I hear. Yeah, I hear ya. I've got the late 20 16 1. It's very similar to yours. It's
[00:04:22] like, it's powerful, but flaw written and the keyboard barely works because they screwed up that design.
[00:04:30] Benedikt: yes,
[00:04:31] Malcom: It's a very expensive piece of junk, honestly.
[00:04:34] Benedikt: yes, exactly. And the new ones are even, even less expensive than the one that I have. And. Yeah. That's
[00:04:42] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I I'm, I'm totally blown away with how much power is now in a laptop. It's like for, for audio, we are now set for the rest of time. I think, I think audio people are going to have no trouble getting a computer that is more than powerful enough to do what they want. It seems like these new [00:05:00] Mac books would be fine if you wanted to make a video game. It's like, they're just so damn powerful.
[00:05:05] Benedikt: Yes. Yes. I mean, It's kind of crazy. What I can do is mine with the I nine that I have, and like, this is already so, so powerful, but it's loud and it gets hot and it has all these flaws that these MacBooks have, because they're just too thin to have too much power in that light and all that stuff. But with the new M one chips, this is not an issue anymore. So I am very, I would really love to have one of those eventually. We'll see. But I think the best news about this and this is relevant for our audience. I think the best news about this is, as you said, that there is enough computing power available in a laptop so that you don't have to worry about doing all your work anymore about being able to do audio work anymore. But also there is no excuse anymore to not be mobile in a way. So I think. Like I made the switch a little early. Maybe I just didn't want to have a desktop computer anymore. I want it to be able to work from wherever I wanted to. And I wanted to have my [00:06:00] studio computer with me at all times. So I made the switch and it, it worked, but not without problems with that computer that I have, but with these new models now, even with the base Mac books or like the smaller MacBook pros and stuff, these are so powerful and portable. So that just means that a musician can. Can if wherever they are, they can just make music and use virtual instruments without, uh, without running out of computing power or Ram or whatever. And you just have a very, very powerful, portable studio rig with you at all times with these machines. So that is really, really cool because. So far, it was kind of, it was possible to work on a laptop, but still limited. But with these machine, I don't think there were any limits now anymore.
[00:06:44] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah, they're gone. They're, they're more powerful than the desktop at the studios. I rent all the time now.
[00:06:49] So done the really like you, you mentioned you want to wait and get some real world reviews. And really, I think what that comes down to for me is seeing how they do handle. And [00:07:00] if that fan kicks into overdrive, as soon as you have a real session going which is honestly a problem for self recording bands, because that fan can be so loud. I've, I've just got some vocals recently and like, right at 180 Hertz, there's just this terrible hum. And it's a computer fan and it's like, well, that's a part of a vocal I would like to use.
[00:07:19] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:07:20] Malcom: Um, And, and I know I've got a friend who's like a Viola recorder and like, That the hum with the noise signal, noise ratio of like a stringed instrument, like that is, is pretty loud. So it's like a total shame for them that they hate their computer because of that. So if they have actually greatly reduced or even eliminated fan noise, that is, that's like something I'm very interested in. And of course the computer not heating up and starting to not be able to process properly is important too.
[00:07:49] Benedikt: Yep,
[00:07:49] Exactly. You actually hear that fan noise right now on my voice, because I, I gated out in the, when we edit the podcast, it's been gated and there's like a noise reduction plug-in and whatever, but you can [00:08:00] still hear it when I'm talking in the background. So, and it's more audible than, than on your Trek Malcolm, because I using I'm using a condenser mic. That is a real
[00:08:07] problem. Yeah, we
[00:08:08] Malcom: Like, like, well recording this, I it's, it's almost, distractingly loud in like, just my, my room. It's like, God.
[00:08:15] Benedikt: yes, exactly. Exactly.
[00:08:17] Anyways. Okay. Yeah. What an improve. I hope that it's an, it's a great improvement. And it seems like it is like, it seems like, but we'll see. Okay. So let's get to today's episode
[00:08:29] Malcom: one warning
[00:08:30] before we do, uh, listeners. I am on the west coast of Canada and we are expecting a giant storm. So if I just go silent in this episode ends, that's what happened.
[00:08:43] Benedikt: Alright.
[00:08:43] Malcom: be fine though.
[00:08:45] Benedikt: Alright. I just, we just watched Castaway yesterday, the Tom Hanks movie with the family, and now all these fixtures come to my mind, like Malcolm stranded on the island somewhere without anything.
[00:08:57] Malcom: I think it's going to be fine where I live [00:09:00] probably, but I don't have windows in my studio room, so I have no idea what's going on over there.
[00:09:05] Benedikt: Alright. Alright. Alright, cool. Let's hope for the best.
[00:09:08] Yeah. Talking about being, having a portable regular, like working remotely this episode is about working remotely with other people and those people are at session musicians. So it's about how to find a professional session musician. Best practices for working with session musicians. And yeah, and it's, it's something we haven't really talked about. And I think it's a cool topic to cover for two reasons. Because the first obvious reason I think is that if you can, if you're not able to play something yourself very well, you can just hire someone who can do it. And. Upgrade the quality of your work that way. And the other reason is that I think as a self recording band, you are like perfectly set up to be a session musician. If you want to be that like you are a musician, you can record. Yes. And if you [00:10:00] are good enough in both those things you could in theory, start a career, or just offer your services to other people or do it as a side hustle or whatever, but you could definitely definitely make money off of that. Or just do something that, that fulfills you in that makes where you can make good use of your equipment. If you're a man isn't that recording. So I think it's worth looking at it from those two perspectives, because I think. Big part of our audience could actually be session musicians. They might just not have thought about it.
[00:10:28] Malcom: Yeah, totally playing music on other people's trends. Is more fun than playing music on your own tracks. It's awesome. It's like a great time. It feels so creative because you find yourself in a situation that is totally different than what you normally do, because you didn't make the situation. So it's a great experience, but really this episode, isn't about convincing you to become one. Although you should consider it we want to teach you why you should consider hiring them. Hiring, assessing
[00:10:55] Benedikt: It's hard to say, right?
[00:10:57] Malcom: a session musician and, [00:11:00] and and like what the advantages of that are, and you don't just like common obstacles and to find it, like I do it all the time. I probably have more experience in hiring session players then than Benny does. Just with like my John rhe and, and how I work. And I think I'm very good at it. I have a very high success ratio for what we get coming back, being exactly what we wanted. So that's the most important part because it feels weird trusting somebody that you've never met in a lot of cases to just send you what you hope for. It's a lot it's like that could go badly and it has gone badly for me once, once we just got something that was terrible, it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't what we wanted. And the. Said they were going to give us a revision, but just never did. And we just actually just lost that money. And and that was a personal project with my buddy Marcus, a co-host on the other podcast actually. So we failed with my own thing, but with other people's music done really well. So we want to, we want to make sure that that goes well for you as well. And, and yeah, then [00:12:00] there's a bunch of stuff we can talk about on this. So.
[00:12:03] Benedikt: I, I'm going to ask a couple of questions you, because you know, you really do know more about that than I do. So let's start by saying. Maybe give, give us a couple examples of situations where you would actually hire or consider hiring session musicians, because I assume that most of the time you are working, even if it's, even though it's a little bit like a little different from the genres that I work in mostly, but you're still working with bands. So you would assume that they have all the people, they need to play their part. So when. What would the situation come up where you would suggest hiring session musicians? Is it just for solo artists who just can't do it or is it with bands as well?
[00:12:42] Malcom: It is for both. So sometimes I do work with solo artists and we have to build a band around them. And that is where I first developed this skill of choosing the right band, I think. And. By the way as a self producing band, whoever that producer had is, is the person that's meant to be deciding who's playing what, and what's right for that. And we've [00:13:00] talked about, you know, choosing who plays the guitar on the record. And sometimes that's just one of the guitar players. So choosing the band is part of the producer's job. And in that case, we're hiring like a full band, you know, often with a singer songwriter, they don't even play the guitar. If they're an acoustic guitar singer, songwriter will still hire a guitarist because they're really. What they're really like talented that as being the singer and the lyricist and stuff like that. Actually, I work with one musician, Michael Wilford, who writes the songs, but doesn't even sing them. He ends up drumming on them. But he hires like he'll go and choose a vocalist for it as well. Which is really rare and very cool, I think. But so, yeah, there's, there's that building a band, but even when I'm working with a band, it still does come up. The usual situation is an instrument that nobody knows how to play. So say they want a, an Oregon, but they don't have a keyboard. That's a very common one. We'll hire somebody to give us keys parts or a very common one. Again, would be the fiddle. So if it's like a country song or something like that, and we want it [00:14:00] to really sound country and get some fiddle or lap steel and stuff like that, those are rare instruments. Not many people play those especially in the circle of a rock band or like, you know, a guitar band. So we have to find somebody to do that. And sometimes hiring a session. Musician means bringing them into the studio and recording them, which is always a blast. I love doing that. I get to produce their take and engineer it and tell them exactly what I want in real time and get layers and stuff like that. That's the best, but it's much more expensive because we have to book at digital studio time. We have to pay them to get to us. And there's one huge limitation and that is that we need them to live near. For this to happen right now with the internet, we can find somebody in Nashville that plays the fiddle and you can guarantee you they're going to kick ass. Right.
[00:14:50] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:14:51] Malcom: And, and you can look at the resume and they're like, oh, they played for all these big names. Like they're obviously good. And you can, you, you can verify that, like, do they have credit [00:15:00] on this album? They do. All right. This person is the real deal. You still have to get examples and figure out if their engineering skills.
[00:15:06] that's that's part of the puzzle. They don't have to just be a good musician. They also have to be able to record themselves. Well, you know, we just talked about the noisy laptop. You don't want that in your recording. But uh, but yeah, so finding somebody online is, is totally possible. And then they just send it to you. Uh, Remotely, which is, which is fantastic. And there's obviously pros and cons of both. Normally it's cheaper to do the remote thing, but we don't get to produce their performances in real time and give feedback. There's just more of a, you get what they give you kind of situation in that involved. So you really have to choose the right person and be very descriptive in what you're looking for as well.
[00:15:42] Benedikt: Yeah. I I'd say though, that this is becoming more and more the norm, especially now with COVID and stuff. And
[00:15:47] like, um, I think that the whole remote thing is really. It can be a lucrative niche, to be honest, there, there is demand for that. And I think that the attendance Zcash [00:16:00] sessions yeah, there's still a thing, but I think hiring someone remotely and like maybe, maybe producing them through the computer, or maybe not at all is the way that most people are going to do it. Probably now most people, I think. Would would then ask, like, how do I find someone like that? Do I go on like these freelancing platforms? Like, do I go on Fiverr or whatever, and like type in session, musician or drummer, or do I go to two to sound better? Which is a platform for that? Or how, where, where do you, you have your context?
[00:16:32] Malcom: So word of mouth is always a good idea. Like referrals are based on trust usually and, and shared experience. So you know, what a great idea would be. Go do the self according band.com/community.
[00:16:46] And ask there. And I will probably chime in because I have like the best Rolodex obsession musicians now. And I love finding new ones, like new people. I'm like, you know, a drummer comes in for a session with me and I've never recorded them before. And I'm like, wow, you are [00:17:00] world-class, you are now in my contact list and I know how you play and what your style is and how you tune drums. You are now a sound that's banked away in my head. And if I need it again, you're going to get a call.
[00:17:10] Benedikt: You know what we should do. We should make a threat in our, just to a, don't forget this NRA, this down. We should make a threat in our community where we just basically allow for people to, to advertise that they're musician services or whatever, because usually I don't, I don't allow self promotion in that group because like, you have to, you know, you know what happens if you allow that? So we don't do that typically, but we should do a threat. And like facilitate connections and like just allow people to collaborate and um, and show others what they can do, because I really want our community to collaborate like that. And it would be very cool to have a producer or a band who needs someone like to have them find someone in our community who can play whatever they are lacking or like just, that's a really good idea. Let's let's do that. Let's create a thread or like regular threads and allow people to, to post. [00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Malcom: For sure. Now there's, there's one more scenario where hiring a session player comes into play. And that is when you need to replace a band member that just can't do it up to snuff. This is usually usually a dry. Um, Just because drums are the hardest thing to do to get world-class recordings of right. There's so much at play. They have to, they have to be just like a master of meter and the metronome. They have to, you know, be able to tune their drums and they have to be able to hit their drums consistently, like a recording drummer and gigging drummer, just different animals often. So and again, Sometimes you, you could have the best drummer in the world that playing bass blast beats. But if you need them to do like some backbeat groove thing, they just can't, it's just not their style or something. You just, sometimes you just have to hire a different drummer for that song. It happens. Always a tough conversation to have a. It just has to happen. Sometimes if you want your recording to be kick-ass, you have to kind of solve these problems. So that, that [00:19:00] happens. Sometimes it's a guitarist. Sometimes it's a basis. Sometimes it's drummer, you know, it's whatever needs to happen,
[00:19:07] Benedikt: Yeah. Agreed. So, yeah, but back to, to finding people like that. So you mentioned the community, but other than the community, like where do you look for, for people? Like, let's say it's a drummer, let's say you needed a drummer, which is the most complicated thing. Um, To look for, and you need someone really skilled. You need someone who can play the drums well for a recording session. And that person also needs to be good at engineering and understanding you and have a good room and all of that. Like where do you find a person like that?
[00:19:33] Malcom: Okay. So I would assume that I am not the only person that keeps track of the good musicians I've worked with this. Ask the other skilled producers in your area, they're going to know who has made their job easy because they're the people they're gonna want to work with. Right. And so reach out to people that have recorded the people that, that would be a great way. If you know, a band that has has used a session player, sometimes those rumors kind of leak out or whatever you can, you could [00:20:00] ask them who they use, or if you know a band like in your community that has. Kick-ass recordings. You can ask them, oh, did you play this? Do you do session work? Do you have, like, do you want to come to my studio or do you have a recording set up? You know, you can start that conversation again. I think going to an engineer or a producer and finding out from the. Is a really good idea because that you're not asking the musician personally, the musician is always going to want to do it. If you ask a guitarist, do you want to play my song? They will say, yes.
[00:20:33] Benedikt: probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:35] Malcom: It doesn't matter if they have never played your drawn or they'll probably say yes. So, so you, you getting it from somebody else, I think is a really wise cause it's going to be a little more unbiased. But then yeah, the trick still stands of do they have a self recording setup and really, you just have to ask them to send you a demo recordings feel free to share those demo recordings with somebody, you know, that has experience with engineering. Like if you don't know what to look for in drum recordings, you should probably [00:21:00] try and get an opinion from somebody. Yeah, and again, the resume's huge. So there there's this guy called fiddlin, Dan who plays with like Dirks, Bentley and stuff, big country names and yeah, he does it and he does pretty much anytime I need fiddle or banjo he's, he's our first choice. And you know, I was pretty able to just say, yeah, let's do this because of his resume. Like the, the, the tier of people he works with, I knew it was going to be good. And he had an example up on his web. So I guess that's one more, one more way to find it, as you just look online and find the, you know, some session players have their own websites in this case, I'm just remembering that the client found him somehow. I don't know how, but they sent me his website and we're like, this guy seems perfect. And, and he was, and now I've used him. I don't know, 20 times.
[00:21:46] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's very good. But all of these things are still sort of from your community or a circle of people that you know, or like some sort of word of mouth. So I think. You would really [00:22:00] turn to like these like freelancing platforms and stuff like that. And look there. I mean, because that could work, I think.
[00:22:06] Malcom: Th that definitely could work. And I have, so I think we've mentioned sound better, which is probably the biggest. Services musical services marketplace. I'm going right now. I have looked on there and there's audio examples on there, which is, which is cool. honestly, I didn't, I don't think we found, like I used it and I sent some people to the client, but I don't think we ended up going with them on there. I'm sure. I'm sure that would work though. You know, there's no reason it wouldn't you know, fiddling down probably has a profile in there. I just haven't looked for it there. I've
[00:22:37] just got as email.
[00:22:40] Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I agree. You should, you should look in your circle of friends and bands. You know, when people, you know, you work with, or like, just as you said, like. If, you know, a producer, or if you, if you know a record that you really like and you look up who played on that record, it's not too hard. Most of the time to just contact those people. [00:23:00] If you have the budget for it. And honestly, session musicians are often more affordable than you think. Like I've mixed songs for people who hired crazy famous people for those songs. And it's N it doesn't cost a fortune. Like, obviously they are, it's, it's a, they are charging accordingly, but it's not like it's not as crazy as you might think for many of those. And um, so maybe just, just look at the at who, who played on those tracks and then just find a way to contact them and ask
[00:23:30] Malcom: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I I've worked with Grammy winning musicians for a hundred bucks a song that is ridiculous. That is so stupid.
[00:23:39] Benedikt: that's ridiculous. That's really ridiculous
[00:23:41] Malcom: So stupid, but like they're, they're so good. They're probably knocking it out in 20 minutes,
[00:23:45] Benedikt: Yeah. I mean, you
[00:23:46] shouldn't expect that though.
[00:23:48] There's one word of warning. Like don't expect that price, but, it could happen, so
[00:23:51] Malcom: It could happen. And uh, yeah, there's a reason I'm leaving out a name because I don't, you know, they, they can charge according to whatever they want. Now yeah, so. [00:24:00] Maybe we should talk about best practices for, for how to do this the specifically to remote. Cause if it's an in-person thing, it's the same as any other recording day. Really, but other, I will say that send them the tracking advance. So they have time to prepare. That's really the tip there. But if you're doing the remote thing well, I guess we've talked about collaborating
[00:24:19] remotely before. so it's the same
[00:24:21] thing. You have to consolidate its tracks to the start of your session. I like to put in a little like counting with a click. So like the first four beats have a
[00:24:31] click, print it into it, and then they can visually see that it lines up with their session, that the BPMs, right. Put the BB here, I'm in the file name so that they have that there. Or you can send an info sheet or whatever and make sure it's well balanced enough to play to it. You need them to make musical decisions that you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life. So
[00:24:48] the mix has to be pretty decent, you know, the better the mix, the better they're going to do. And then, so you send them that track. I usually send, yeah, just a rough bounce, like one file, you know, with everything pretty well balanced. You could [00:25:00] send them stems, but honestly, I think that's just going to confuse, like add, take away from them, focusing on playing their instrument. So I would probably just do a, a well-balanced reference track. If they ask for something in particular, you could do that. But I think it's important. Like I'm thinking about the fiddle right now in particular, but with like something like that, I definitely need to have the vocal in there. I definitely need to have the lead guitar in there. I need the whole song to exist pretty much. This is almost always the last thing we do, because I want the decisions. This, this other person is adding to be built to compliment everything else that is meant to like written into the song, you know, that was written with the artist. They have to, yeah, they're not just doing their own thing. They're not laying the foundation. They're adding to it. You know, if
[00:25:46] Benedikt: Yeah.
[00:25:47] Malcom: carpentry section.
[00:25:48] Benedikt: Yeah. Now. Okay. So what do you do when it comes to telling them what they should play? Like do you include a scratch track? And like, if let's say you need a fiddle and no one in the room [00:26:00] completely. W would you done programs sort of a scratch track for them? Would you play with a keyboard? What you say, do whatever you think fits
[00:26:07] Malcom: Right.
[00:26:07] Benedikt: or whatever, and like, w w what
[00:26:09] Malcom: Yeah. So this is where I think I kind of have a super power in building good teams. Is that when I put somebody in my Rolodex, it's not just because they played in time or end in tune. It's like, I also categories their style. Like I have, I know I can pretty much picture what they're going to do to some extent. And that like, honestly, that works almost every time. So. So I'll just keep using fiddling. Dan, I'm just giving you referrals, buddy. Uh, like I almost, I think one time we sent him an arrangement for what we wanted on like a kind of symphonic string part, but otherwise it's, here's a song go nuts. I know it's going to be perfect. And we've, we've never asked for revisions. We've asked for a double that's. The only revision request I've made is like, could you play the same part twice so I can pan it out? So like, I know what he, like, I know his style and I know that if I hire him [00:27:00] that I'm going to get that style. And it's exactly what I'm looking for. If I want that, I know other string players and I will hire them. If I'm looking for something. Same with drummers. You know, I know who's going to give me the bottom sounding drums and who's going to give me like a tight metal sounding kind of kit. That might be great for like a pop song or something as well. Like very short to case. I know that stuff I know who's going to get, who's got a big room, a big drum room, and who's got a type sounding drum room and I know who plays straight and who plays swingy. So I generally hire musicians and then don't tell them anything because the song's already telling them what is.
[00:27:37] Benedikt: All right. Okay. Okay. That's cool. So that requires you to hire people who are not only great at playing and like engineering, but as you said, they also need to be sort of in, after to have more of a musical knowledge, they almost have to be writers in a way or creative, at least creative enough to add.
[00:27:55] to it.
[00:27:56] Malcom: totally told him every, yeah.
[00:27:58] Benedikt: some people though. I think so.
[00:27:59] Malcom: [00:28:00] And it requires a lot of trust on the part of like myself or the, the band that is hiring the session player. They have to trust that they're choosing the right person. Because it's, it's honestly, it's just not realistic to give them to overproduce remotely. You can't, you're not there with them. Some people will do like a zoom in kind of thing. So you could do that and kind of be sit in with them while they make the. And, and direct it like you were producing it in person. But generally if you're going to, if you want that, do it in person, it is my opinion. If you want it to just kind of be that you're trusting that they're going to give you what you want choose the right person and, and trust that they're going to give you what you want. And, you know, a lot of people will have revisions built in, especially drummers, you know, because drums are so many options. And they're, they're so foundational. So in that case, it's like, oh yeah, I loved this, but could we go to the crash on the course instead? And then they just whip out the take again kind of thing. That's, that's totally fine. But on revisions, I will say you want to declare what that [00:29:00] arrangement is before you start working with each other, how many revisions are included? What does the process look like when you're working with this person?
[00:29:06] Benedikt: A hundred percent communication is everything here. So I would definitely talk about like range, like revisions also in general. Like I would, I would communicate as much as possible before the session, like when it comes to like boundaries, like deadlines, revisions, that sort of stuff. But when it comes to the creative part, I totally agree that it's cool. If someone who can. Do it and be creative, but I think the trick is to be open enough for new ideas and just let the person? do their thing, but also being clear enough and giving them enough direction so that they end up giving you what you want. So that there's the balance there, because I think you have to give them some guidance and direction. And I think they will appreciate that even if they are really great musicians and they could just do whatever they could. They will probably appreciate if you just take the lead and like give them [00:30:00] directions and tell them what you want to get out of the track or what you want the song to feel like, or can be something like that. But some sort of guidance I think is important.
[00:30:09] Malcom: Yeah. Now again, the reference track being as complete as possible does a lot of that for you especially with a lead instrument, like, like using the fiddle again, like there's a complete song by that point. So the, where they have spots to play is, is painfully obvious if they're, if they're great. But yeah, th there nobody's gonna get. Being given a reference track, like, Hey, here's a country song that has fiddle the way I was hoping. I'm like, like, okay, that kind of style, no problem like that. Like, that's going to be helpful for sure. So, yeah, it's hard to over-communicate I think but I do want to stress that when working remotely. It's not the same as being in person. So don't expect to like have to change every lick you get back. It's it's just too tedious and they're not charging enough to be able to do that remotely. in person is better for that stuff.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Benedikt: Yeah. totally. like the, the only instrument where I really have experienced with this, this is in fact rums. So like you said, in the beginning, and when I would, when I would hire a session drummers, I would program the drums though, just because. We need something to attract you anyways. And we need that. That's so foundational that I can't really do anything without having a scratch drum track, at least. So in this case, if you're hearing a drummer, I think you can absolutely send them your scratch drums or your program drums. And then you just, it's just a matter of telling them whether they should stick exactly to what you programmed or if you want them to. Add something to it or change it up or whatever, because they both could cope. Both could be the case effort with bands who really wanted very specific fills in certain parts. And like, we needed to tell the drummer to play exactly that. And then we had like cases where it was just some field, just so we had one and we told the drummer to just do whatever you think works well in this
[00:31:58] Malcom: Yeah. I think these, this is all placeholder, but [00:32:00] it gives a vibe. Yeah, that's totally a great idea. And I think that it would kind of be dictated by genre as well. Like, you know, like the, the more intentional and like, like Like, I'm thinking like a hard rock, new metal or heavy metal song where everything's very coordinated, you know, you're going to need to give them some coordination and be like, Hey, this is, you can tell what's going on here now. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And again, I, I think I would have just when you said that, like, oh, like we need specific fields. I'm like, okay. There's like two drummers that come to mind that could handle that. It's important that I know which players could do that even. Right. So if I'm working with a client that is that kind of particular. I just rule out like half of my list of players, because they're not gonna be able to keep up with that style. Right. That's just not how some people work. So again, that's another good thing to know in your Rolodex is like, are they a technical beast?
[00:32:50] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:32:51] Malcom: to be good for this technical project.
[00:32:53] Benedikt: Yeah, which brings me back to the best practices thing that we started with. So part of it is like the, everything we just [00:33:00] said, proper communication, determining the revision process before, like in advance all these things, but it's also important, especially with drums, but it could happen with other instruments as well, I guess, is that. Make sure that what you're programming or what you giving them as abstract is actually doable. So if you are that band who is really like, if you are that particular about certain fields and stuff and make sure that a human can actually play this, and I'm saying it because I've witnessed it a lot when people are just when guitarists write songs and they just programmed drums to it, and then they want to hire someone to play that oftentimes there are parts that would require four arms. And so you would just, just, just make sure that the drummer can actually play that. And if you can't do that, just show it to a drummer, you know, and ask if this is doable, like
[00:33:46] Malcom: Right. Yep. Very, very good idea. they only have to
[00:33:50] Benedikt: yeah,
[00:33:51] Malcom: hopefully,
[00:33:51] Benedikt: hopefully. Exactly. Exactly.
[00:33:54] Malcom: that that's, that's, great.
[00:33:55] Benedikt: Other best practices though, what else is [00:34:00] really important? Because. This is all about communication, basically, and about the scratch strikes and about the vision and all of that. But, but like technical things um, you, you said, you already said, I think that you should make a mix. That sounds good. And probably give them that instead of individual tracks, I would agree the click count in a very good idea,
[00:34:19] Malcom: Yep. If you're providing a reference, like you said, you programmed drums, or you had a reference melody you wanted followed in certain parts or something. Keep that on a separate track, I would say so they can remove it if they want to or boost it up kind of thing to follow it closer, or just that that's a good practice. wouldn't regret that uh,
[00:34:37] Benedikt: I'd say. Okay. Okay. Yeah, my name I would, I was about to add to that, to the technical stuff. Make sure you got the sample rate, right. And communicate that as well. Like if you, if you've recorded in, I don't know, 48, then tell them to record in 48 and give them the, the mix in 48. So when they imported that, like nothing. And the wrong tempo or pitch or whatever, just [00:35:00] that's very important. It can be overlooked easily. I've had, I've had people collaborate with each other in completely different sample rates and different doors and everything. And it just gets so messy and everybody has to convert back and forth and avoid that.
[00:35:13] Malcom: Right. Okay. Actually, you know what, here's one in a differentiator. The best session players I work with, send me one thing back. They say, here it is. And it is comped and in time and awesome. They don't send me, Hey, I did five takes, use what you want. That is the rookie move. The rookie move is I did five takes. I'm sure you could piece something together. I didn't know what you want. So I did a bunch of different stuff.
[00:35:40] Benedikt: that gives me anxiety. Just
[00:35:42] Malcom: Oh, you're fired immediately in my books. Um, yeah, like it's just like, and what that says is I didn't make any decisions.
[00:35:51] I didn't decide on a direction, so here's a bunch of garbage.
[00:35:55] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:35:56] Malcom: so if you're thinking about being a session musician, that's important to [00:36:00] know you're, you're meant to deliver your. And give them one, you can have a second one ready if you want and be like, oh yeah, you need some also it's here. I already have it all ready for you, but send the one, be like, this is what I wanted to do.
[00:36:12] Benedikt: Breach. It's just absolutely the same for people hiring mixers, by the way. I get that all the time. Like here is the, I dunno, we've recorded five, as she said, we've recorded five vocal takes, just pick the one you like most. No, no I won't.
[00:36:31] So yeah, that don't do that.
[00:36:34] Malcom: Yep. Told
[00:36:34] Him commit, commit, commit.
[00:36:36] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:36:37] Malcom: Yeah, so, so there's that? Yeah, I wanted to touch on the money side of things, because like you said, this is all communications. Figure out what they want to be paid in advance, figure out if they charged GST. So you're not caught off guard that figure out what currency they charge in as well. You don't want to have any surprises on your side or their side. And just keep that out of like, you just don't want anybody thinking about that stuff. I don't know. I think [00:37:00] like, I usually I'm happy to pay in advance for their services because I trust these people enough and I know they're professionals and then that's just out of the way and, and their conversations. Like, it's just not on their mind. I like that, but it doesn't have to be that, you know, everybody's going to have their own way of, sometimes they might want to deposit whatever, but just make sure it's all that all happens before music has.
[00:37:22] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:37:23] Malcom: Now there's a thing called a work for hire, which is a legal form. You're meant to get them to sign that says they were paid to do this work and they don't own any rights to this. Including their rights as a performer. I like there's performance royalties. I think that they're there for fitting in that as well. I think am not a lawyer. I
[00:37:43] should know this because I've totally talked about this on my other podcast I don't remember. Um, so, but, uh, you're meant to get them to do that. I've played on so many goddamn records and never signed one in my life, but I'm not going to go after these people like that. That's a good way to burn my [00:38:00] career to a ground, the ground. I think if I was making a stink, but I would happily sign one. If, if you're listening to this and I've worked with you and you want me to sign one, send it to me. I will still sign it. And you should do that. You should get them to sign it because if your song goes and becomes a number one, you don't want to be getting sued for it and saying that they have some claim to it or something. So that's a good practice. Get a work for hire form. And now there's in my mind, there's a difference between hiring somebody to be the drummer on the song. And then a difference between here is my new song featuring so-and-so from this.
[00:38:30] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:38:31] Malcom: A feature is interesting because. Is implying. I don't know. It's almost like you're using their brand to market your song if you're putting it into the title of the song. So that's worth considering. And I think again, should be communicated. If you are allowed to do that in advance, if they're comfortable with it, are they, do they want to be associated with it? Maybe they want to do the part and not get credited at all. They want to be a ghost musician, maybe that suits their brand needs better. You know, if they're in a totally different genre, that's very [00:39:00] realistic to think.
[00:39:01] Benedikt: Yes.
[00:39:02] Malcom: So all of that should be figured out as well.
[00:39:05] Benedikt: Yeah. I agree. it gets tricky because I don't think that it's only four features that that this, this really starts to matter. It could also be for any sort of like lead instrument where somebody basically writes a melody or something for a song, because I mean, they could have, they could sign a form like that and like, you'd be fine, but still, I think. Let's say the song is like, becomes a number one and somebody you hired played, like they came up with a elite melody and some instrument. And it's like the, the thing that people know, like the
[00:39:41] Malcom: Yeah.
[00:39:42] Benedikt: it's the hook. Yeah, then they've absolutely contributed to that song. And they, they are like, co-writing that song basically in a way. So it, you need to have that conversation, whatever route you're going, but you have to. You have to have that conversation in advance and make sure that everybody is on the same [00:40:00] page there, and that you have a document that you have documented it in some, some way, because that could go very, very badly in the end, like. yeah. I just, I don't want to, I don't want to even think about that situation. So you should just have some sort of contract or some sort of forum assigned, or you should just give them points. Like if they really contribute to the song and they write a melody and the song is released and it's a hit song, they get compensated accordingly. So that. is a very common thing too. So whatever they prefer, whatever you prefer to just have, let's just have a conversation about it. We are not lawyers. We can give you advice here. We just say. Talk about the stuff and don't ignore it because you will regret it if you
[00:40:41] Malcom: Yeah. So there's no reason somebody couldn't also get paid and half points, you know, like, Hey, I want to become, sit and have a writer's credit like that. That's a totally reasonable negotiation as well, but it just needs to be negotiated in advance and, and written down somewhere and stored. Actually this is so important because if you sync a song [00:41:00] and it goes to be put into a TV show or something they will expect to receive like a signed document that all of these people are on board with this, and they need to know who those people are so that those people can get paid for their royalties of it being on this TV show. And if you don't have that documents like that stuff ready, they'll just move on because they make those decisions like really quick. They have like 24 hours to turn this around and get it approved. So if you're not ready, you lose it. It's on there. They're choosing a different. Um, So you have to have that all squared away. Also, your producer might be hiring this musician, but your producer is not your legal entity. So you have to do this shit. Your producer is busy making your song. So you email the, the musician to get it done.
[00:41:42] Benedikt: Yeah, absolutely. And if you both, if you're a self producing, then it's your job, unfortunately,
[00:41:48] but yes, exactly, exactly that, but yeah, that's a good point. I didn't even think about it, but that's a very good point. You got to be prepared if you don't want to lose these opportunities. Yeah,
[00:41:58] Malcom: Yeah, it's a, it's the [00:42:00] pain in the ass work, but it's what separates the winners from the losers.
[00:42:03] Benedikt: Totally. Totally. Yep. And also the other way around, if you play on other people's records, maybe you should think about starting to negotiate that stuff. Maybe you should think about getting points or um, Charging more in case you're not getting credited as a writer or maybe you could, maybe you could make it easier for your clients and prepare some form and send it to them. You know, like there are many ways from both sides that, that you many things you could do to make this easier and just think about that. And whatever you do, just avoid the conversation after it's too late, because then it really gets messy. And it's like hard to do that after the fact.
[00:42:40] Malcom: Totally. I heard a great quote yesterday and it was if the roof leak, if the roof's leaking, it's too late to fix it. And the roof isn't leaking when it's sunny,
[00:42:48] Benedikt: Yes. Yes. That is true. That is very, very true. Yep. Totally. All right? So what should you expect from session musicians and what should [00:43:00] you deliver if you want to be a session musician? So what is expected as you said, one consolidated
[00:43:05] Malcom: Yeah.
[00:43:06] Benedikt: That's the
[00:43:07] Malcom: Yes.
[00:43:08] Benedikt: the right separate all of that. Of course. Yeah.
[00:43:10] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. I expect that first and foremost, I expect really good communication. I want them to tell me how much the cost of court like volunteer that stuff. Like if they're being coy about that, it's a red flag and I'm moving on. And uh, I expect a timeline and I do expect them to stick to that timeline. That's again, if they're, if they're consistently late, I'm going to remove them from the Rolodex, because I can't have that. It's uh, reflects bad on me and I can't plan to complete songs in time. And obviously that's just like, it's already a stressful experience for the artist. Because they put so much trust in this thing and then they often pay them and then there's waiting in limbo. So communication being there and the, I try and just, you know, have a conversation with the session player, the artist and, and me CC together. So everybody's getting updated at all times. So yeah, really good [00:44:00] file. That sounds awesome. And is the right taste and good community? That's really all you need back to be a happy person at the end of the day.
[00:44:09] Benedikt: Yeah, sure. Um, What about. what about the doubles? Or like I said, let's say now, I mean, with vocals you'd really have a session musicians but like in
[00:44:19] fact, Yeah, I w I was, I was about to say, Yeah, especially in the country world, there are some people making a living, just a singing, backing vocals, and they crushing it. So in that case, or like, if, if it's a guitarist, for example I mean, that's part of the communication thing, I guess, but would you expect them to deliver a no doubles, harmonies, whatever, or is that totally up the person I'm
[00:44:42] Malcom: right.
[00:44:42] Benedikt: and, and giving direction?
[00:44:44] Malcom: I tend that is actually something I tend to be specific about. Um, I try to specify that I want, I expect doubles of everything,
[00:44:52] Benedikt: Yeah,
[00:44:53] Malcom: because why not? Right. Why not have that? So. Yeah. I mean, like if you're a hard rock session, [00:45:00] guitarists chances are, you would anyway. So that's what I would do. If somebody hired me to play guitar, you're going to get a left and a right, for sure. I still ask for it just to make sure it happens lists in particular, because for whatever reason, that's just not how vocalists think they, you know, they're like, I'm one person here I am. Here's my harmony. Here's another harmony kind of thing. And that's cool, but I'd be way more fun for me if I had a double of everything just to work with. So I tried to be specific about that. But you know, on a fiddle, I often don't, I just get the one back and that's great. That sounds like what I wanted. Uh, I might say, oh, you, you, you made this hook here. That is now going to be the core of the song. Can you just double that for me? And then I can have that part have doubles and you know, that's the revision request. I know that he's going to be happy to knock off that extra little track for me. No problem.
[00:45:46] Benedikt: Okay. Cool. Now what about editing? Do you expect edited, mixed, ready tracks that is just pulling into your session and you don't have to do anything to them, or do you expect raw performances in you edited and make sure the timing and intonation, everything is just spot [00:46:00] on.
[00:46:00] Malcom: Okay. So I don't necessarily expect it to be edited, but I expect it to be so tight that it doesn't necessarily need it.
[00:46:07] Benedikt: Okay. Cool.
[00:46:08] Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like if they're a session musician, that means they're good enough that it should be totally usable, whatever they send me.
[00:46:14] Benedikt: Yeah. this doesn't mean that it doesn't need a few additional tweaks because as we said, even the best musicians in the world, it needs some help sometimes. And like editing is totally about being intentional with every single note, no matter how good the performances. So it could be that you still have to edit it, but it should be very much in the ballpark. It should be
[00:46:34] Malcom: Yeah.
[00:46:35] Benedikt: to perfect.
[00:46:36] Malcom: It's a choice. If they're a session level, it's a choice. And I know like I, there's one drummer that I I've worked with remotely that does edit his tracks and send them to me and I love it. It's a great, that's awesome. Um, Perfect. And, and then there's another one that doesn't, but it's, it's very, very tight and I'd make the decision if I even need to, based on that. When I do session work, I told the, edit my guitar parts before I send them on. [00:47:00]
[00:47:00] Benedikt: Yup.
[00:47:01] Malcom: but I'm sure there's other people that don't
[00:47:03] Benedikt: yeah. Awesome. Cool. All right. Now there's one final thing, and I think you should always do that regardless of like, you should do that in general, whether you're working with mixers, mastering engineers or session musicians or anybody give credit that is so important. And so many people forget that in our industry for someone. There's there have been whole podcast episodes from other podcasts talking about this because it's such a weird thing. Yeah. just give credit, just name the people that contributed to your record. If they want to, like, sometimes they don't want to be credited and that's fine. But like, just do it like no photographer would ever allow you to publish any of their photos or post them online or whatever, without giving credit, like they would immediately come at you and ask you to, to, to add the credit that is totally normal in the photo and video world. But for some reason, it's not as common in the audio world. And so many people post their videos on YouTube [00:48:00] and you can read who did the video and you can see who did whatever, but you rarely see the producers or let alone like session musicians or editors or mastering engineers or whatever. Like there's so many people involved in making this, but for some reason only the videographers get the credit so often. So Yeah. it's like, it's the truth. And I think, and even platforms like Spotify, it took. Years or like decades now uh, to get that right. And they still don't like, there's still no proper way to, just to include credits when you, when you release something. So Yeah. just, just do it without being asked for it. Just make that, turn that into a habit, just ask people for like how they want to be credited, put it everywhere you post and release your music. And it's just, it just helps those people. Work for more people and create more awesome music. If you are happy with what they did for you just support them and give proper.
[00:48:49] Malcom: Totally. And here's a really good pitch to why you should do this. Say you hired one session musician and a mixer and maybe a mastering engineer let's go with or, or we'll scratch it. And eventually we'll say [00:49:00] a session musician, a mixer who also mastered it for you and then a video. For the music video. So three people, if you tag all three of them in your post, that's three more people that are probably going to share your post and because they can share it when you tag it allows you to now actually like share it as like your own thing on your Instagram stories or whatever. So you're like, you're doing yourself a favor as well. There's no reason not to.
[00:49:24] Benedikt: Yes, absolutely. So,
[00:49:26] Malcom: That's my main pet peeve about somebody be like, oh, new song today. They put me in the comments or tag me or whatever. It's like, I can't even share it guys. Like
[00:49:36] it's less about my credit. I can't even help you.
[00:49:38] Benedikt: yeah, yeah. Yes, totally. Totally. So yeah, do that. It doesn't cost you anything. Uh, It's just Something you should, you. should always do regardless. Info session
[00:49:46] Malcom: Totally.
[00:49:47] Benedikt: Totally. I mean, yeah, nothing more after this.
[00:49:50] Malcom: Yes. And now uh, I quickly want to touch on the, the ghost subject again, they might not want to, for whatever reason. Um, So in that case, you don't have to again, I think putting their name [00:50:00] in like the title as like a feature is something that really has to be communicated in advance because their name and their band art brands. So make sure that that is a transparent conversation. Like if you, I know, hired somebody that played on a U2 song, and then you said, So-and-so of U2. You two would be totally allowed to Sue you. You're not allowed to use their brand. Their brand is worth millions and millions of dollars. You're an asshole.
[00:50:23] Benedikt: Yeah.
[00:50:23] Malcom: Um,
[00:50:24] And that's a stupid thing to do anyways. So careful with that. But then if you don't want to give credit, maybe you don't want people to know that uh, you didn't play the guitar on your album. That is called ghost work, essentially. And you should be paying that person more to, to hide like pretty much to ask them to conceal the fact that they did it for you. Um, This happens in the writing world. A lot, people go straight for people. So you think you're reading a book by somebody, but it was written by somebody else. And it's just how it is so many blogs that are like that. Here's a useful tip on how to record a guitar is [00:51:00] written by not who you think it is.
[00:51:03] Benedikt: Yeah, it happens. Totally, totally happens in music the same way. Um, so, so many hits songs have been written by the same couple of people. You just don't know. I mean, you can look that up of course, but it's not always obvious and not always
[00:51:16] Malcom: No, sometimes it is actually told the concealed and hidden. Yeah, sometimes it's just not advertised, but sometimes it's told the it'll actually say somebody else did it then who actually did it. Um, Yeah. So, so just be aware if you don't want to give. Tell them, you're not going to give him credit and pay him for that and have them sign something. Of course, that a column, you know, says the same thing for
[00:51:39] Benedikt: yeah.
[00:51:39] Malcom: Um, I do want to say that Benny does write his own blog posts
[00:51:42] on the self recording band,
[00:51:43] Benedikt: yeah. Yes. Thank you for that. Yes I do. Yes, I do.
[00:51:46] Malcom: and we haven't figured out how to do the podcast with ghost. You know, people we can't,
[00:51:51] Benedikt: Yeah.
[00:51:52] Malcom: can have somebody that sounds like me, come in here, I'm going to stop doing it.
[00:51:54] Benedikt: Yeah, exactly. That that being said, if you are a great writer and know what you're talking about [00:52:00] just hit me up. Like I'm totally open to publishing guest posts or whatever. Like I would love to do that. Um, So. And I would absolutely credit you for that, but at the moment I'm doing all of it. Yeah.
[00:52:11] Malcom: Yeah.
[00:52:12] Benedikt: So and maybe the final thing don't be offended. There'll be offended if someone doesn't want to be credited because take, because it could just be that they want to help you and they can improve your song. But the song just might not be on their level, or they might not want to be associated with that because. You got to realize they, it depends on who it is and who you are and how good the song is. But these people are selective with what they want their name attached to. And if they are telling you, I'm happy to help you and it's this much, but I don't want to have, I don't want to be credited. Then don't be offended. That is actually pretty common that it can even happen with mixing and mastering could even be that someone is willing to mix your song and master your song, but they don't want to be credited because it's not just not good enough to be a part of their portfolio. That is just normal. And [00:53:00] yeah, I th I think you should be prepared for that to happen at some point and not be offended if it happens. So,
[00:53:07] Malcom: Yeah. All right. Well, to end this off, I would love to play guitar and more records hit me up and also I know just awesome session musicians. So please hit me up on that. Actually, you know what we did an episode with wet future, a few back there, drummer bread attic has started as a session player. You would
[00:53:24] just send an attracts remotely from his own studio, and now he's in the band. But he does that, you know, there you go.
[00:53:30] Benedikt: Hit him up and try for yourself.
[00:53:32] Malcom: as well.
[00:53:33] Benedikt: Cool, cool. Yeah. Try it for yourself. And um, yeah, let us know how that goes. Like if you are now starting to, to look for a session musicians and hire your first musician for a, for a song you're working on, let us know how it went and if it improved your songs. Because I, I think it's, it's a thing that people don't use it often.
[00:53:51] Malcom: Told him told him. All right. Yeah.
[00:53:55] Benedikt: See you next week then.
[00:53:57] Malcom: See ya. Bye.[00:54:00]
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