172: Creation vs Craft – What We Learned From Rick Rubin’s Book “The Creative Act” And Why You Should Read It

172: Creation vs Craft – What We Learned From Rick Rubin’s Book “The Creative Act” And Why You Should Read It

I just finished Rick Rubin's book "The Creative Act" *. A fascinating and very inspiring read that made me want to talk about it on the podcast, because there are so many interesting things to discuss and unpack in what he says.


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In this episode I want to highlight one specific, very important concept that is at the heart of the book.

In "The Creative Act" *, Rubin discusses the phases of any creative project, which he calls the Seed phase, the Experimentation phase, the Craft phase, and the Completion phase.

This made me think about the way I guide people through the process of making a record. Rubin provides a framework that makes a lot of sense to me and it will help you understand

  • when and when not to plan things
  • when and how to use limitations
  • when to create without any agenda, rules or limitations
  • the difference between craft and creation


From working with so many artists, I know that many people find it hard to "plan" art. To follow a process and to be intentional.


I always ask people to tell me why they are making a record, what they want it to sound and feel like, what they are trying to achieve and how they are going to make that happen.

But it's important to understand that not every part of making a record has to be planned. Not every decision needs a "why" behind it. Especially not in the early phases.

There's a time and place for experimenting, going with the flow and working without any limitations, rules or goals in mind.

And then there's a place for just executing and using skill, knowledge, a plan and a strategic process to bring the initial idea to life.


I realized that the way I used to explain and teach it can easily be misunderstood, so "The Creative Act" provides a perfect opportunity to make this more clear and straight forward.


First, here's the process that I teach:

  • The foundation (writing, arranging, simple demos, practicing, planning)
  • The gear (choosing the equipment you need for the project and setting it up correctly)
  • Pre-Pro (preparing yourself and the songs for the actual recording session)
  • Soundcheck and final setup (instrument setup, mic choice and placement, etc.)
  • The recording session (capturing the best possible performances)
  • Comping/consolidating (choosing the best takes and committing to a final version
  • Editing (clean up, correction)
  • Mixing
  • Mastering


At every stage of the record making process there's a bit of both creation and craft involved, so let's have a look at that.


The writing never stops. 

As artists we are constantly inspired by things happening around us, our emotions, stories we hear, people we meet, things we go through, etc. 

Just observe, pay attention and capture (the seed)


Then we take these notes and develop them into drafts. 

No rules. No limitations. No plan. We create, what we feel like creating and let our intuition and inspiration guide us. Whatever comes out becomes the art. Some things will be good, others not so much. We just keep creating and experimenting.

But then at some point, the craft becomes important. 

As soon as we have a vision, as soon as we have a draft that we really like, we need to make sure that it sounds and feels exactly right. That it has the impact we want it to have. That it actually has a chance to be heard, reach an audience and get our message out into the world. 

This is where we have to make intentional writing, arrangement and engineering decisions. And this is also where some "rules" or best practices start to make sense. At least as starting points. They can always be questioned but we shouldn't spend too much time experimenting when we're past a certain point in the process.


Also, as soon as we have a vision, as soon as we have a draft that we really like, it makes sense to start planning and thinking about the "why". 

What got us here? Why is this important to us? Why do we want to bring this to life? Who are the best people to do it?

So, if we think about it that way and separate the craft and creation, we can show up to do either or, focus on the task at hand and will get the most out of both, instead of constantly doing it all at the same time.


Let's discuss!



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Get your copy of The Creative Act here *

Automatic Episode Transcript — Please excuse any errors, not reviewed for accuracy (click for full transcript)

Malcom: The best artists that I've worked with. Have this vault of things. So if you sit down to to play with them and you're like, Hey, you got anything? They're like, oh yeah, I wrote this song three years ago. I couldn't figure out the course. And then I just got it. And now here's this, the song that people

Benedikt: This is the Self Recording Band podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own, wherever you are. D iy style. Let's go. Hello and welcome to the Self Recording Band podcast. I'm your host, Benedictine. If you're new to the show, welcome. So stoke to have you if you are already a listener. Thank you for coming back. Uh, always glad to have you. And, uh, today we're gonna talk about a book that I just finished and Malcolm is just halfway through it, I think. Uh, it's called The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. It's a fascinating and very inspiring read that made me wanna talk about it on the podcast because there are a lot of interesting things to discuss and unpack in what he says. And, um, yeah, I'm, I might use more of what I learned from this book in future episodes, but for now I wanna start with a very important concept that it is, that is at the heart of this book. So, um, I'll, in this episode, I'm gonna read a lot from my notes here and then we'll discuss it together. And I'm curious to hear, uh, your thoughts, Malcolm. So as always, I'm not doing this alone. I'm here with my friend and co-host, Malcolm Owen Flood, who's finally back on this podcast. Hello my friend. Hey man, how are you Penny? I'm good, thank you. How are you?

Malcom: Good. It's great to see you. It's great to be chatting with you again. That was, uh, I think five weeks without doing an episode together, which is like our longest ever. Um, probably didn't appear that way to our listeners cause we pre-record multiple episodes and stuff like that. But, uh, I missed you man. It's good to see you. Yeah,

Benedikt: totally. I missed you. I missed you so much like this. We made it through without a break. Um, but I'm so glad that we, we are back in a normal routine. It's kind of a definitely, um, kind of a weird start though, because we started on Monday, which is our usual podcast recording day, but then had technical difficulties and had to reschedule through Friday now. But I hope that from now on in the next week we're gonna be back to our routine because I really missed that.

Malcom: So, yeah. Yeah, I think, I think we're back. We're back at it, which is awesome. Hey, I've got, uh, some musical banter slash news that Go ahead. Excited about, um, an artist that I have mixed for that is, uh, I believe a listener of this podcast. I mean, she, she definitely self records all of her stuff. Okay. Darian Gerard, um, she got some, a festival spot on the island here actually while you're here. I'm gonna add, uh, while Ben Benny's coming to Vancouver Island in Canada for my wedding coming up pretty soon here. Listeners, um mm-hmm. Rick and so stoked about, but while he is here, there's a big music festival and, uh, yeah, Dari and this, this artist, uh, scored a spot on the main stage and needed a band. So I'm gonna play with, play with her of be guitar on in the band. She's gonna be awesome. Um, I haven't played a, like last show in like three years I think. So really? That's

Benedikt: excited. Thought you did some, some, some quick ones in between like, Did I forget something because like, or was it just jamming with, with friends bands and stuff? I think it was

Malcom: just jamming. I don't think I've done a show. Oh, wow. Then it's even more exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting. And it's like a huge, massive stage. I think it's one of the biggest stages in North America, actually. So that'll be cool. Wow.

Benedikt: Awesome. Um, let, let me ask you one question. You told me that last week or like on Monday before the last attempt to record this episode, but there was one question I kept, I, I forgot, forgot to ask. Do you actually, like, with the wedding coming up and everything and like. Do you actually do I think that's a good idea. Yeah. I mean, okay. Yeah, no, that too. But like, uh, that, you know, you have to know if that's a good idea or not, but like, do you actually get to practice? Because I, I think, I mean, isn't it like hard to play for someone else and play their songs and prepare properly

Malcom: and all that without practicing?

Uh, yeah, it is. Um, I, I've been really cramming right now. Um, I feel like the further from the wedding, uh, the more time I'm gonna have, so I'm just like really, really putting a lot of time into the songs right now. But you're doing that over day? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're actually doing our first, like almost full band practice tonight with the, the, the band that we put together for it, which is is it is, it's gonna be awesome. It's all past band mates of mind. Aside from Darien, the. Our, uh, kind of core talent. So just kind of built a band of, of colleagues and friends around her, which is gonna be

Benedikt: awesome. Awesome. So cool. Uh, yeah, because I've, I mean, I'm having, I'm having a hard time preparing our own songs for my band, like with the few shows that we play, you know, every single time I have to put a few days of practice in almost like an hour here and there to just, uh, get, you know, get back in shape. But playing for someone else, I, I just, I've never done that actually, but I can imagine it's, it's kind of hard. So. Yeah,

Malcom: I'm loving it though. It's like, it's so great flexing these musical muscles again and uh mm-hmm. You know, like learning, like there, there's a whole memorization side to music that is very specific to music that I kind of have not realized I had lost. Where you have to associate patterns with each other in order to memorize, you know, these different progressions and shapes and what, what key you're in, what frets you're playing. And, uh, that's been fascinating getting that going. Again, um, there's a small physical side to a guitar. It's not the most physical thing, but there is definitely a, an aspect. Um, and then, uh, making tones, I'm loving making tones. That

Benedikt: would've been my, my next question. What, what's the rig you're gonna be

Malcom: playing? Oh man, it, it, I'm, I'm pushing the keer to its full capabilities this time, and I like really regret not doing that sooner. Um, okay. I, yeah, I definitely was scraping the surface of making the keer a stage beast with, with band a Rascals. I, I pretty much treated it like, uh, a giant pedal board, maybe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. With like a couple amps kind of thing with Ben Rascals, but more so it was like I had my amp and these are the different gain patches with different effects patches kind of thing. Very much a pedal board set up where this is like, I've got one of those for every song, so I, oh wow. I click on the song title, it loads a different amp for each section of the song that I. I think is necessary. Uh, and I've got like a button that says verse a button that says course A button that says verse two on the remote pre-course, you know, on the, on the remote. Yeah, exactly. So I, I have like each part of the song dialed in perfectly with like, wow. The exact tempo already mapped to it, you know, cause we're playing to a click. So it's just like, I click on that and there's a crazy tr effect that is perfectly timed to do 130 beats per minute. And it's so awesome. It's just like, it's so great. And, and being able to change amps at different times is, It's cooler than I thought it would be.

Benedikt: Awesome. Yeah, that that sounds really cool. Does does it make you nervous though? I mean, it probably works, but in my head, like there's so many moving parts and like if something goes wrong then it really goes wrong, sort of. So I dunno.

Malcom: Yeah, like if the keer went down, I don't know what I would do. I've thought

Benedikt: about that.

I mean, but it shouldn't happen. But like everything, is there anything else that can go wrong? It just. The amount of variables like, you know, it's actually, that's problem. Cause I've always just played an amp, you know, and I had a camper for a while, but I used like an amp with a few pillows, like you said. But like, um, in my mind it's like I have my amp and a few things and I know what, but they all do. But like, having this massive setup, I dunno. For whatever reason, it makes me nervous. And I always think that things could not work for I know, right?

Malcom: Yeah. No, but it, it's actually, it's simpler. Cause I've, I've had, I've like tried to do similar things with like real pedals and stuff, but you can't, you, you're doing like the pedal dance, you know? Yeah. Stepping like on three pedals at one time and skipping around where this is one button changes everything, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so it, it, it's kind of simplified and I've got them laid out in order. So it kind of also is helping me with the memorization of like, I don't really remember when the, like what part comes next, but I just click the next button. Yeah. And it says course it's gonna be the chorus next, you know? Yeah. Um, that's so it's kinda thing

Benedikt: that's the thing of, yeah, that's the thing. I was wondering if like, I would have to quadruple check that everything's correct and that there's no mistake that I made programming it basically, you know?

Malcom: Right. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely have to dial that in perfectly for sure. Um, so, but you know, I've got the, if you're watching the podcast on, uh, YouTube, I'm in my studio here. I can just load up the songs, uh, yeah, I can load up the pro tool sessions if I want, because I mixed the, the most latest ep, so it's like I can actually look at every track and get everything I need figured out kind of thing. So it's more work upfront, but it, it makes it way simpler after, cause I don't have to remember. What delay, pedal to click, what reverb needs to be on. If I had a boost for the solo or not, I just click solo and it, it knows everything. Mm-hmm. Awesome. So really all I have to think about is playing the part and clicking one button. It's awesome. That's so

Benedikt: cool. And, uh, you didn't, so you didn't switch to anything new yet, like, because you were thinking about the qual cortex and other things, you just stuck with your thrust.

Malcom: Yeah, I, I really was, and I was keeping an eye out, but I think I'm, I'm pretty convinced with the keur again, um, for a couple reasons. Wow. We are really going amp guitar tone here. Yeah. Yeah, that's totally

Benedikt: fine. Haven't that.

Malcom: Yeah. Uh, couple things. Um, I updated the KEER for doing this, and they've made some pretty big improvements on the software side of things. Mm-hmm. Um, like using the, the rig managers pretty greatly improved. That process is awesome. Um, and, uh, pretty close to Awesome, I would say. And then they've also added, uh, some new features that I haven't even got to try yet. They're in like beta right now, but they've got liquid profiling. Have you heard about that, Benny? I've

Benedikt: heard it. Um, I got a newsletter about it, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcom: So for, for our listeners, a Kemper used to be a snapshot, so it would profile an amp set up, you've got a real amp, and then you would have that like exact sound locked in, which is crazy, but it was just that one sound. So if you wanted to make it, you know, a little less distorted or, or turn down the treble, it didn't really respond like the amp. If you did that on the Keer, it was kind of like, you kind of just had the snapshot that you actually. Captured it in. Um, but with liquid profiling, they claim to have solved that. And you're essentially stealing the soul of the amp. Yeah. Entirely. And you can now, you know, if, if you have a JCM 800 profile and you crank the top end, it's going to respond like a JCM 800 does not like a keer does.

Benedikt: Not at all though. It's basically like a Marshall Desk with eq. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The,

Malcom: the Kemper section on, uh, uh, EQ section on a Kemper is like, is not like any amp.

People don't like using it at all. Yeah. Um, but, but now it's, yeah, like all of the knobs are kind of meant to replicate what the actual AMP would do. So that's gonna be very helpful, especially for me with how I'm used to martial amps, um, and how, you know, if I turn up the game or turn it in the game, it does something totally different. So Very cool. Looking forward to that. And they've got u USB audio apparently now too. Oh. Which I didn't know was even gonna be a thing, but just being able to record via one U SB cable. That's pretty cool.

Benedikt: Oh, you can use it as an interface now basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's, that's neat.

Awesome. Um, yeah, that, that sounds, that all sounds great, man. And I mean, yeah, that's the perfect setup, honestly, like being, it's so crazy what you can do and, and that what you, you know, like these switching amps like that and, and the whole setups like that throughout, even, not even from song to song, but throughout the song. Yeah.

Malcom: It's like, it's insane. Yeah. It's, it's wild. Yeah. Yeah. They definitely made it modern enough to compete with stuff like the quad cortex for me now, so I'm in. Okay.

Benedikt: Awesome. And what, what, which guitar are you gonna play? One or multiple. Uh,

Malcom: my, my, it's not on the wall behind me right now, but my, uh, wine red, uh, Les Paul is gonna be my main guitar. I was gonna borrow the, I had an ever tune, but, and I sold it if anybody remembers. Cuz I got a camera addiction now. Yeah. Um, but I, uh, I was gonna borrow that back off our Derek Madden. Uh, friend of the podcast. Um, but, and he was totally willing to let me, but I dialed all these stones in with the last Paul and it's a, like, it's a 35 minute set I think. So I'm like, I can handle tuning for 35 minutes. It's okay. Yes. Yeah, it's okay.

Benedikt: It's totally okay. Awesome. And that guitar is like, you're used to it. It's your guitar and you've, you've been

Malcom: playing it for a while, so Yeah, that's, that's my main ax. So Gotta rocket.

Benedikt: Awesome. So cool. So stoked. Yeah. I'm gonna, I, when was the date again? After the wedding, is it right? Yeah. I don't have my calendar anyways. Yeah, this is gonna be

Malcom: June 30th, lake Town, shake Downs, the festival. Sick lineup. It's gonna be fun. Yeah. We'll, uh, we'll try and figure out if we can steal, if you've away from, uh, Your, your travels around the island for that, Benny. That'd be super fun.

Benedikt: Yes, yes, yes. I will, I will make sure, like I will try and make that happen. Yeah, that's,

Malcom: that's gotta be fun for sure. We'll, uh, we'll try and make you, uh, our, our crew roadie or something and get you in with us

Benedikt: totally down to that. And I want actually got, got a crew if you want me, like I have down to do whatever, so. Oh, awesome. Um, awesome. Perfect. Great. Yeah, so, uh, that was the episode on like the recent keer update

Malcom: on on, yeah. On the news of Keer we found updated everyone. Yeah.

Benedikt: Liquid profiling. Uh, so yeah, I think actually, but, so one more thing I wanted to say about this. I think this was the one thing that they actually had to fix, and I'm so glad that they did because that was the, that plus the caps, but the caps were easily replaceable, but that was the one thing that I never really liked about the Keer. Um, and if they really fixed it and it works and, and feels like that, then there's really a. You know, it's, it's, it's almost a perfect device, although it's more than 10 years at, at this point, but, you know.

Malcom: Yeah. Well that's, that's like, and one more thing that I really love is that, yeah, like 10 years ago people bought this keer and they're still adding new features and they're still saying, Hey, there's no keer two on the horizon. It's, this is the camper. We're gonna keep making it better for you. Yeah. Which is so refreshing in how ba like businesses worked these days where like you buy something and within 12 months it's obsolete because they've abandoned it and made a new product. It's just like they just keep investing into the thing I already own and making it better. It's like, this is cool. Yeah. I'm pretty, uh, grateful for it right now.

Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Totally. Partly though, and I might, I don't know if that's entirely true, but I've read it a couple of times. Part of that is though, that I think. The, the chips that they built it around back then are not available anymore, and it's kind of difficult to port it to a new thing. So I, I don't, I'm not even sure they can make a camper two at this point. So I've read that, that it's like not really possible. So they care to have to continue supporting that. But it's a good thing either way. Like, it, it's a, an amazing thing that things don't become obsolete. And, and apparently hardware is not the, the limit here. They, it is just about the software and how they capture it. And you can always develop that. So that's, that's just great.

Malcom: Yeah. Yeah. Works for me. No problem there. Um, one last thing that I wanna talk to, uh, you about before we get into this is not related. Okay. Okay. Yeah. No, nobody has to skip forward 30 seconds. It's fine. Uh, I just wanna put in everyone's ear that we are absolutely planning to have a self recording band meet up. In Canada, on Vancouver Island. Well, Benny and I are here, so if you live on the island, which I think there's a good, uh, core group of listeners from the, probably like, you know, early day listeners from when we started the podcast, which is awesome. Um, that are, that live on the island. Totally wanna see you at this. It would be such a fun time. Um, if you are nearby on the mainland or Yeah, it, it's just up it, you can make it. Please do feel free to travel for it, but of course, no pressure. Yeah. Um, and yeah, so we don't have a date yet, but maybe we should encourage people to reach out so that we can start kind of getting organized and knowing who wants to come and stuff like that. So do reach out to us. Just wanted to get you as much notice as possible

Benedikt: on that. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So cool. You brought, you brought that up. Um, what's the best way for people to reach out? They just DM us. I mean, you can always email podcast at the surf recording band.com. So I always see that, and I know that's about the podcast, so that will definitely be seen that will, uh, react to it. Um, that is one way. And then if you, you know, if you know Malcolm or myself or me personally, whatever, you can just reach out wherever, I guess, and we'll hopefully see it. But, uh, do so and I that would be so cool to have a group of people on the other side of the world, of the world basically for me to, and, uh, Yeah, meet up there. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Really

Malcom: looking forward to that. But yeah, do reach out kind of, I don't, I don't mind. Whatever way you wanna, just Cool. Let us know that you're, you're in, it's gonna be near the end of June sometime. Um, probably so around that

Benedikt: timeframe. Awesome. Perfect. Really cool. Alright. Right. So, um, let's get to it. I wanted to, I, I, yeah, let's skip my banter apart for next time then. That's like too much.

Malcom: I took it all with Kemper.

Benedikt: No, that's perfect. That's absolutely perfect. Let's get to this episode. Um, I just wanna say, if you're watching this on YouTube, we always have a timestamp, um, below the video where you can skip the banter if you're not interested in, in this sort of stuff, because I know a lot of people do actually wanna, want, want us to do that. So we keep doing it. But in case you didn't see it this time, next time you're watching a, a YouTube video from us, like a pod, YouTube podcast, you can just skip the banter by clicking on that timestamp and then you're straight right here where the episode starts. All right. So, So about that Keer.

Malcom: Alright, well we can, we can talk about the real thing. So,

Benedikt: totally. So back to the, the real thing. So the episode is called Creation. So I dunno, it's a working title, but it's like about the concept of like creation versus craft and the two phases that Rick Ruben explains in his, in his book. There's much more to it that, that he talks about in the book. But this is at the, at the heart of the book really, and, and something I wanted to talk about. I've made a lot of notes, it's like almost a little summary o of it where, I'm gonna read a few things here just so I don't forget it and then we'll discuss them on, uh, on the show. So the thing that I want to talk, like what it is that we're talking about is that Ruben discusses the phases of a creative project, basically, which he calls the seed phase. The experimentation phase, the craft phase, and the completion phase. This is sort of the framework that he uses. And, uh, by the way, should we explain who Rick Rubin is? Real quick before we dive into this? Like just, he's a, if you don't know him, he's one of the most famous record producers on this planet. He's, I don't know how many Platinum records and Grammys and whatnot. He's won. He's worked with everybody. Like it's insane. Just look him up. Um, what makes him sort of special is his whole, like the whole brand or this figure that he is basically he's, um, yeah, look him up and do, do some research. Um, I think he has a very, he's a producer, but he's the, the classic sort of type of producer that's these days, people don't think of that as, as a producer basically. I think so he. He doesn't operate the board, or like, he doesn't mix, he doesn't engineer. He's basically sitting in the room observing the situation and guiding people to get the best performances out of, out of them, and to make sure that the songs are the best they can be and that the, you know, and he, he's super great at building teams of engineers and like people with technical ability. He claims to have no technical ability, which is probably not entirely true. But, um, he says that. But he, he's really the, like a, like a movie director basically. He's in the room and he has such a great feel for, um, unique art and emotion. And he can, I think, just, he's a good leader in the room also. He can just guide people very well. He built teams and, uh, he's just views the whole creative process a little differently than most people, I guess. And his results speak for themselves. Like he's very, very successful in all kinds of genres. That's also remarkable. He's done from, from hip hop to heavy metal to like, you know, all kinds of things. And it, it, it just works. Seems to work. So,

Malcom: I, I, I do like, I feel like I wanna say just a couple artists he's worked with cuz it like, gives you an idea of the scope. Like he's done Kanye, he's done System of A Down, he's done Red Hot Chili Peppers. Um, and I think that's just literally scraping the surface. Metallica, I think he worked with Johnny, Johnny Cash. Think Johnny as well. Johnny Cash, like literally every genre with the most successful artist in that genre he's worked with. I, I, I would say he's probably indisputably the most successful record producer of all time. Yeah. Um, I would say so. It's, it's ridiculous how successful he's been in all of these different genres, which should be impossible. It's just wild. Yeah. Totally, totally. So obviously he's onto something. He's onto

Benedikt: something. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Okay. So, um, and yeah, and so in this book, he discussed these phases and this made me think about the way I guide people through the process of making a record. Because it provides a framework that makes a lot of sense to me, and it will help you understand a couple of things. It helps you understand when and when not to plan things, when and how to use, um, limitations and when not to use limitations, when to create without an agenda, rules or limitations, you know, when and the difference between craft and creation. Because when I explain the way I think about making records, when I explain that to people, for example, in our coaching program, then there's a lot of planning involved, a lot of systematic things, a lot of like processes. And this doesn't sound very creative, but I always think about it as things that help me be more creative. And sometimes people have a, have a hard time understanding what I mean there. And, um, Ruben explains that better than I do actually. And, and like, and this was just eye-opening for me, how he separates the creation from, from the craft, which is what I want to do, but I, I wasn't able to put it in a framework like he does. So I wanted to talk about it on this podcast and maybe that clarifies a few things. And, um, so yeah, I don't know. It's probably, you said Malcolm, when you listened to the book, or you started listening to it, that it challenged some, some things that you thought to be true or like some the way you think about things in some way because you are also like a very systematic, um, you know, you have a very systematic approach and you're a very, um, yeah. You like to, you like to plan things and execute and show up and do the work and see results, you know, and, and, uh, yeah.

Malcom: I like, yeah, it, it's like kind of just. Put my nose to the grind until the job's done is of the way. I definitely can think about approaching even creative things. It's just like, all right, let's just lock ourselves into this room until we get a song done. You know, let's put in the hours. And, uh, and while that can totally work, this book is definitely challenging me to think that maybe there's easier, uh, or, or more creative focused ways of accomplishing that. And maybe you don't have to, um, make it such a grind. Um, and I'm not like, I'm only, I'm still listening to the book, so Benny's gonna be leading this one a lot kind of thing. And, and, um, we're gonna be discussing the ideas from this book, but it, I do recommend checking it out already. Um, I think Benny and I both found, it started off a little too, I don't even know how to describe it, uh, cerebral for us to like think that we are gonna like it, but then you start kind of getting it and being like, okay, maybe the fact that I'm. Not instantly gelling with this is why it's good, a good idea to listen and try some of these

Benedikt: ideas. Yes, yes. Exactly. Cool. So I'm, I'm just gonna really, uh, quickly tell people like the way I like the process that I typically teach. And there's actually, it's not that different from, from what Rick Rubin does. Um, just so you know what we're talking about and why there's even like different phases and why some things are more like, more creative than others maybe. So, um, I know that many people find it hard, as I said, to plan art and, and that makes sense to me to follow a process and to be intentional when it's something so creative as like, creating art. And I always ask people to tell me why they are making a record, what they want to sound it and feel like, you know, what they are trying to achieve, how they're going to make that happen. And, um, people have a hard time answering that oftentimes. So it's important to understand. That not every part of making a record has to be planned. Not every decision needs a why behind it, you know, especially not in the early phases. So there's a time and place, I think, for experimenting, going with the flow and working without any limitations or rules or goals in mind. And then there's a place for just executing and using skill, knowledge and a strategic process to bring that initial idea to life. And so I realized that the way I used to explain and teach it can easily be misunderstood. So this book provided a perfect opportunity to make this more clear and straightforward. So the process that I teach is that at the beginning there's something that's called, that I call the foundation, where it's writing, arranging, um, you know, capturing first simple demos and practicing and like just playing a lot. So that part is where. There are not many, many rules. It's just creating something from scratch out of thin air. Basically you're writing, you're arranging it, you're optimizing a little bit, you're capturing the ideas, and that's pretty much it. Then the next part that I teach is you choose, it's, it's about the gear. So gear doesn't come first, that it's the next part. You choose the equipment you need for the project and you'll learn how to set it up correctly. And then you do pre-production, which is you prepare yourself and the songs for the actual recording session, and you learn the gear and like you make, just make sure that you're prepared for actually recording it. Then it gets more and more into like, what, what would be sort of the craft phase where um, you do the final setup, you know, the final instrument set up, you choose the mics, you do like mic placement, you, you engineer, so that the initial idea that you had actually comes out of the speakers the way you want it. Then there's the recording session itself where it's about capturing the best possible performances. Everything else has been taken care of, and then there's comping and consolidating, choosing the best takes, committing to a final version, then editing, cleanup, correction, and that sort of stuff. And then, uh, mixing and mastering. And at every stage there's a bit of both creation and craft involved. I think. So I, I want to discuss that to me, when I ask people in the beginning about their why. I think one part that I'm, um, one mistake that I made probably often was that I didn't explain that the why isn't the first thing before you ever start writing anything or capturing it. I think you have to, when you, but there's some sort of inspiration or idea, um, or something just comes out of you, then you can absolutely just play around with that and capture it and experiment and, and bright whatever, without any rules or without knowing why. Exactly. Um, and then at some point, I think when you have, at least that's, that's the way I think about it when you have like some raw ideas and sort of a backlog of like things that you capture, things that inspire you, and it starts to take on some sort of form and, and, and develop and develop into some, some sort of serious project that could eventually be a record. Then it's time to think about. The, the, the goal, the why, like, why do you even want this? Why do you f wanna follow through with this? Like, is there anything you wanna achieve for your, yourself as a band or artist? Is there a certain way you want this to sound? And if so, why do you wanna get on certain playlists? Do you wanna sound like a certain band, or is there a certain unique thing you do? You know, then all these questions start to make sense. But I think only after a phase of, you know, of doing whatever. And I think honestly, this phase never stops. Um, I think as an artist you are always constantly inspired by everything that's around you, by things you experience in your life, past experiences, things you see. Um, so the writing actually never stops. And, and a lot of good writers that I know, they just. Constantly make notes of all kinds of things. And they not always work on those at, on the spot, but they capture things or like they know things and then there are certain, you know, sessions or times when they just sit down and turn these or play around with these and turn 'em into actual drafts. And, and I think that part never really stops and it doesn't need any rules or plans. And that's pretty much I what Ruben says as well. So I wonder about all of that. Like, I wonder how, how you see that Malcolm, and if you ever think about it like that, do you, do you start with, with a plan and then start to write the first thing? Or do you sometimes just for whatever reason, have an idea in mind and you play around with it without really knowing why you do this or, or what

Malcom: the goal is? Right? Yeah. I, I always just. Kind of waited for an idea and then tried to capture, like, to capitalize on that idea happening. Like, so, you know, just, you just kind of play guitar until all of a sudden you're, you're excited about a riff. Um, all of a sudden you just kind of like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm onto something here. And then I would just try and, and make a song out of that on the spot. Um, and, and there's a couple things that, that are discussed in the book. There's like that creativity kind of has like this short little time limit usually. Um, and you want to squeeze every bit you can out of that little gift you've been given of like, oh, all of a sudden it's on creative ideas are happening, you're inspired. Uh, so, and, and I totally agree with that. Milk it for everything. You can, don't, don't be like, oh, I'm onto something, but I'm gonna come. I'm just gonna go make a coffee. You know, come back to it. Just sit there and use it up. That is definitely a hugely important thing. And. When a guy like Rick Rubin says that it's like, oh, he's, he's seen this in, in countless successful artists. Like it is a thing, it's not just me. I'm not crazy. It's like you have to really use that. Uh, the tap is turned on, so use the water coming out of it. Um, but then the other thing that I think is related to this that I wish I had done is just capture them right away as well. Um, because sometimes you get excited about something and you try and write it on the spot and then you kind of lose your excitement about it and you can't really see how it's gonna be useful or work with whatever your current project is. And then for me, I would usually just kind of abandon it. It had to be like truly special and the perfect thing for that time with my band to really survive that stage. And if it didn't, if it was like a, a song that I didn't see our band using, I would just stop. Playing it and then just hope that another idea would come along. That was more in line with, with my band. And that I think was a, a real mistake and a kind of a shame if I just captured it. There might've been a time down the road where it would've been the right thing. Um, either for my band or for different artist entirely, or for, uh, uh, an artist in the studio. Maybe it's just the sound that I've made. It's just like a sonic idea. It doesn't even have to be a piece of music, you know? There's just so much value in capturing it. And I didn't really consider this, but the best artists that I've worked with have this vault of things. So if you sit down to, to play with them and you're like, Hey, you got anything? They're like, yeah, I've got this thing I was just thinking about that I wrote a while ago. And, and you, you hear people about like, oh yeah, I wrote this song three years ago and couldn't figure out the course, and then I just got it and now here's this. The song that people like, like it doesn't have to all be in one stretch. You just kind of have to harvest it while you can capture it and then complete it when the next burst comes.

Benedikt: Absolutely agreed. Like what I do, and I don't even, I'm not even a writer, I don't even write songs for anybody right now, but I still do. It is like, I always carry, um, a very tiny, small, like notebook with me, like a physical notebook and, and some sort of pen and, um, because sometimes it's business ideas, sometimes it's, you know, general life things and sometimes it's, it's just creative things where, just some observations, things I notice that I would, whatever reason, wanna write down and, uh, I constantly create this sort of backlog and it could turn into lyrics, it could turn into a business idea, it could turn into a song. So I always have that. And I've seen a lot of writers like who, like, who write lyrics, um, do that a lot where they, they would take, and I also interviewed a lot of people on my other podcast I was talking to. A bunch of really good songwriters where they said they would take the, the notebook anywhere. Like when they go to a bar, they have it with them and they have an interesting conversation or something super funny happens. They just make some quick notes so that it won't forget, because that could turn into, that could be a really great story for a song. Um, and so that is one thing. And then I also have a system on my phone, like system. It's very simple. I just use the, the voice recorder feature on the phone where I would just, if I have a, a melody in my head or something, I would just quickly record it there, give it a name and dump it there and don't even think about it. And then the important thing about that is though, um, so that you're actually gonna use this stuff is. That on a regular basis, not so much these days, but when I was writing more, I'd do that. Um, I would go through this whole catalog and quickly, like once a week or every two weeks or once a month, I don't know. I would go through that really quickly and just be like, okay, this is not something I wanna pursue. Like this is crap or whatever, and I'm gonna filter out the crap. I'm, I'm not gonna delete it. I'm gonna move it to a folder somewhere on a hard drive or a computer. But I, that's the, the thing I probably never look into again. Then there's the sort of Sunday maybe thing where I'm not sure about if this is gonna turn into something and then there are some, some cool things, some nuggets where I'm like, okay, there, there's, I got something there, and this might turn into something. And so with this constant like. Um, curating sort of process that I have, it makes it really easy. Then when I sit down and want and actually wanna write a song, I can look into the folder with the good stuff and can ignore all the rest and can pull that out. And then it's, I I, I assume if I were, if I was to write a song right now, it would be pretty easy to dive in there and put a bunch of riffs together and it probably not the best song in the world, but there, there's some ideas there,

Malcom: so, totally. Yeah, that, that's great. There was two songs on the last Bander Rascals album. Um, there's Holler, which is like our most successful song ever. And, uh, another song called Altitude, which is probably like my favorite. Um, and both of the main riffs of those songs I wrote around Marcus, our drummer, one Altitude I wrote in Mexico while we were backpacking together and I was just jamming away on a little guitar and he recorded it cause he liked it on his phone. I didn't, I was just like, okay, that's cool. And I completely forgot about it. And same with the main Riffer Hollerer. I think we were touring in our RV and he recorded it on his phone. And then, you know,

Benedikt: that's the theme song of this podcast, right? Hollerer? Is it the one?

Malcom: Uh, no, I think that's Sea's coming

Benedikt: Down. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, you're right. But Hollerer, you sent me that too. I think we were

Malcom: talking about that. Yeah, it was probably a consideration. Hollerer I think was, oh no, that was control. I don't know. But um, it, uh, yeah, it, it's like been our, it was our lead single, um, that's the one that we got charting on, on the radio and stuff like that. And, and yeah, it's just like, because Marcus had the foresight to capture the idea and then we're trying to write and he is like, what about this? And I was like, what? What's that? He's like, that was you. I was like, okay, I'll relearn my own riff. And, uh, and yeah, I'm so glad that he had the foresight to capture that. Cuz at the moment I didn't see how it fit. But it obviously fit. It was like our, our lead single, it was a, it's a very important thing that he captured. So very important capitalize

Benedikt: on this stuff. Awesome. Yeah. To totally. And um, yeah, and I think that part, the early the, the, that's the seed phase basically, that just never stops for artists. I think if you are an artist, um, you identify as an artist, you are an artist in everything you do basically. And, and so that's also something he says where you can't really. Uh, it's, it's a concept that he talks about where it's so hard to find a balance in a naturally unbalanced artist's life because of course, there's other things in your life and you have maybe a day job or other things to juggle. But as you said, you can't really force those moments like they happen sometimes and inspiration comes out of nowhere. And the challenge is to, to balance this naturally unbalanced thing. And because you are an artist 24 7, sometimes that means. You actually would go to bat now because you have to get up tomorrow. But right now you have this awesome idea and you sit down with your guitar and before you know it, it's like 3:00 AM because you had to sit there until it turned into something and you just couldn't stop because it just flows. And that's just part of it. And a lot of people have to like, do this and, and, and then there's days where nothing happens. So you constantly capture. And then from what you capture, there might be these sessions where you just need to turn it into something because if you feel like it, and, and I think that's, uh, That's a struggle, but also you just gotta let it happen. You gotta embrace that, I think, and it's, it's a gift. It's a struggle, but it's also a gift because not, not everybody can do that. And um, and he says to really embrace that, to always observe, pay attention, capture the seed, and then take these notes and develop them into, into drafts without any rules, without any limitations, and without any plans. So he says like, we should create what we feel like creating and let our intuition and inspiration guide us and whatever comes out, becomes the art and some things will be good. Oh, that's not so much. We just keep creating and experimenting and let it happen and not let, get, let any plans or intentions get in the way. In this early phase, and this is why I wanted to talk about it, it's so important because I, I always thought about it the same way, but I get now, when I ask people about the why and the plans and everything that. It gets them stuck before they even start it. Basically, they will, they think about these things before they even have the seed or develop the draft. And I think those questions that I always ask, I'm assuming that people are capturing and creating all the time, and then when they wanna turn it into something, eventually then these questions become more important. But not before you have this initial inspiration and, and something to work with. Because there, I think these limit, these plans become unnecessary limitations. And, and this is really important, uh, I guess because sometimes I think we nev we don't know what we are, what we're gonna create. We, we. We might be, you know, he's, he, there's a great example that Rick Ruben talks about where he says, if you have the plan to write, if you think that artists have like a social or political responsibility or whatever, and you have the plan to write something with a clear political message and you wanna change the world with that, and you plan it all out, and then you start writing, it's probably not gonna work. Like, chances that this is gonna work and resonate with people are pretty low because you're gonna use a bunch of like cliches and like phrases that you heard somewhere else, and you, it's probably not gonna be that awesome. But if you just do whatever you feel like and you keep creating, keep writing, keep, um, letting the influences and your beliefs and values and all of that, if you let that happen and turn into, into art, then something that was never intended as such might become the anthem for a revolution. And just because it's who you are, what you believe in, and what you made. And, and a lot of those great songs weren't intended to be that, you know, they just happen. And then, And then it worked. And I think that is a, a very cool thing to, to think about that sometimes you just can't force it and it actually might not even work if you force it. So. Yeah.

Malcom: Yeah. It probably won't. Um, yeah. I'm gonna keep derailing Benny's carefully crafted. Uh, no, that's, I'm here, but, uh, you're, you're, you're, you're inspiring me the, to think about things and I think one of the most important takeaways. Was that, um, like I think we've all had that moment where a song just pours outta you, like start to finish. That's like the ideal situation, you know, and you just can't believe it happened. And invariably, those are like great songs as well. It's just so fantastic. But unfortunately we all know that that's also extremely rare and you can't seem to make that happen. And, and what the point I'm getting at is that inspiration is very, very rare. Um, so when you get it, that's why it's so important to to capture it then and there because you don't know when it's gonna come again. And you also don't have the luxury of choosing when you want it. So you might have rid the album and be recording that album now and more inspiration is coming. Don't. Just stop capturing ideas because you're now recording the songs you've already written. You gotta keep harvesting the new seed or planting the new seeds so that you can harvest them later in the cycle. Uh, it's, yeah, there, there's, it's, I like to break things into stages, but this is one thing. You can't break into stages. You just have to keep the planting of new seeds constantly going because, uh, wasting these little bursts of inspiration that come along the way is a huge mistake, I

Benedikt: think. Absolutely. And, and just don't put any, like, take the pressure off. You don't assume that all of these seeds need to become great pieces of art. Many, most of them won't. Just take the pressure off, capture them anyways, and, um, and then, you know, 10 crappy pieces and then one good one will show up. You know, that's just normal. Absolutely. Uh, And, and that, that's also where a lot of people get stuck, where they have one idea and then they just focus on that one idea, trying to force it into something when instead you could just move on with your day, capture more ideas until there's something that just naturally wants to be developed into something, you know? And yeah, don't assume that every single seed has to, has to become a tree. Like in, in this case it doesn't. Um, and so yeah, but then at some point the craft becomes more important, I think. And as soon as we have a vision, as soon, and this is also what, like what Ruben says here, basically is as soon as we have a vision, as soon as we have a draft that we really like, we need to make sure that it sounds and feels exactly right so that, that it has the impact we want it to have, that it actually has a chance to be heard, to reach an audience and to get our message out into the world. And that's where more of the planning and also the skills, the craft, um, becomes important where. To the point where you might not even be able to do it yourself. So in the case of Rubin, he can guide artists to have these, to turn these seeds into drafts and create a, a cool vision and a cool like piece of art, basically. But then when it comes to actually executing that so that it ends up being on a record and, and, and sounding a certain way, he doesn't do that himself. He builds a team, he hires the right people who have basically, you know, craftsmen and women who, who know their, what they're doing. Um, and then, and then, and then at that point, plans. And also deadlines become important because you want this to, to be, to be, to be done, to be finished. And you don't, and sometimes if you, if you keep it open forever with no limits, no rules, no planning, no deadlines and everything, it just ends up nowhere. So at some point I think you've gotta do it, um, in a more structured and processed like, uh, systematic way and use processes and also deadlines. And, and he says that too, he says, sometimes people are surprised when they enter the studio session with him. They expect him it all, they expect it all to be like super chill. And like he says, like they expect one big music party in the room basically with no rules. And, you know, and, uh, everything's just super creative. And they are surprised how structured the process actually is once they are in the studio, uh, because the creative part is, has already been done. And then when they're actually creating the record, there is, it's very structured and, and they are focused on, and they, because they don't wanna lose what they already have and they wanna get it done before it's gone, basically. And before, um, you know, nobody has, like, nobody feels it's feeling it anymore basically. If that makes sense. So, right. Yeah. At, at some point it, there has to be rules and limitations, and you can even use limitations to your advantage. You can even invent rules for yourself because he always says like that, there are no. General rules, no black and white, but you can invent rules for yourself or for the project, or you can use limitations intentionally just to, um, to force yourself to work within those limitations, which is again, little creative then. But, um, it, it turns it into, it creates a framework for the project. So, um, he says that, that at some point, these limits help move the project forward and might even inspire you to think outside of the box a little and, um, and just, just get things done basically. So, I don't know how, how you feel about that and what, when things turn into like a more systematic process for you, Malcolm.

Malcom: Yeah, I, I, I, I, I agree on those points as well because there's like a law of diminishing returns when you're making a record and, and you do start getting tired of it and less inspired. And that's, again, problematic with the usual. Keeping vocals till later in the recording thing is by the time you get to vocals or singers kind of doesn't care about the song, that's a problem. Yeah. So, yeah, you definitely have to have the, the craft ready, um, but hopefully still staying creative in that moment as well. Cuz like, like you said, uh, ideas could keep coming. Um, so you, you have to capture those while simultaneously checking the boxes that you need to check. But there's one, I'll, I'll paraphrase one quote from this book that I really loved, and it's something along the lines of, um, a painting that's just a painting until it's hung on a wall and at that point it's art. And that I think is like a gut punch for a lot of DIY recording musicians who maybe haven't gotten something past the finish line yet. And it's like, yeah, you're making a song, you're making a recording, but until you actually get it released, now you've put art into the world. Um, and you have to, you have to do that for it to really count. Otherwise it doesn't really exist yet, uh,

Benedikt: to file on your heart drive. It's like nothing else. Yeah,

Malcom: exactly. It's just zeros and ones on a computer until you release it. So Yeah. Until people are listening to it.

Benedikt: Yeah. To totally to that's, that's so good. That quote. I don't even remember that. But it makes so much sense. Yeah. Until it comes out of this. And even then when you release it, like only the moment with music, it's even with a picture is actually like the moment with somebody looks at it, but with music is when it comes out of the speakers. Yeah. And until then it's nothing really, you know, but so yeah, totally. Yep.

Malcom: Until somebody listens to it.

Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Awesome. It's pretty bad. So, so yeah. So at some point this becomes important and, and then we need to make intentional writing and engineering and, uh, arrangement decisions. And, and this is also where some, where I, like I said, some rules and best practices start to make sense, at least at starting points. It's important what you said and Malcolm, that. They can always be questioned. Those rules that you create for yourself or those best practices that you use, they can always be questioned and you should stay open for, um, for creativity. But we shouldn't spend too much time experimenting when we're past a certain point in the process if we don't wanna lose what we already have and if we want to actually finish it at some point. So there's this, there's this balance there. Um, I, I think it also has to do with confidence. If you know that what you have is good and. And it is the way it should be, then there's no need for further experimentation. At some point you just, you just commit, you know that this is great, this is exactly what I want. And of course, you could try every single thing in, in the world and in the mix you could try every single plugin there is. But if you exactly know, if you have that vision, you know what you want it to sound like, and you found something that worked, why would you try everything else? Just move on and commit at some point, because otherwise it will never be finished. Yeah.

Malcom: I think, oh, I was gonna say, I think that if you're like questioning every creative decision while you're doing the, the craft, the recording part of it, you probably. Aren't finished with the, the creative side. You, you're probably, you've probably moved into the craft too soon. Um, so I think the, the point that Rick Rubin's making and that we're making here is that when you move into the craft, the decisions are made because you've, you've had the creative, uh, section really thought out. You know what the vision is. You've made the song the best song It can be. So at this point it's, yeah, it is. Those decisions are made, let's capture it. You don't need to try and, and try and be creative anymore. It's, it's kind of already done.

Benedikt: Yes, yes. Totally. And I think when. Again, I, I, I'm constantly keep thinking about, because that, that's what I said in the beginning, that every phase actually has this craft and creative aspect to it in a little bit, but to varying degrees, you know, there's always a little bit of both in all these things. Uh, but the, I think the closer we get to the finish line, the le, the more the craft becomes important. And when we get to like the, what he calls the completion phase at the end, that is really where you can sabotage yourself by starting all over again. This is sometimes when, um, People who just want, this is not so much the case for self recruiting bands, probably, but there's situations in like label productions when close to the end of a project when everybody loves it and it's almost done. And then somebody from the label or somebody else who thinks they have to have an opinion on it, they, they, they come in and they wanna change something now and wanna go back to the start and change a part or, you know, get rid of a part or add a part or whatever. And this can really sabotage the whole project. And, and, um, it's, it's, at some point it's just not a good idea. At some point you just have to move on and, and complete it and be happy and stoked about what you did and put it out there in the world proudly and not question everything and start over again. But I think if you're that far with your own project, this is likely not gonna happen. So I think you're. I hope so, at least. Um, I think the closer you get to the finish line, the more, um, the craft is important and the more you need to just make sure that you get it done. Also, the whole thing about the planning and thinking about the why and everything, and like, what got us here? Why is this important to us? Why do we want to bring this to life? Who are the people, the, uh, who are the best people to do it? Who is this for? All those things. This is, these are questions you can and should ask yourself. I think once you have a clear vision, once you have turned one of those seeds into a draft, and then you know what it's gonna be like, and, and then you can ask yourself these questions. And I also think that those are, they're in between the initial, to me at least the initial creation phase and then the final stages of the craft phase because they inform the decisions you're making in the craft phase. So for example, if I know that I want a certain. That I have a certain identity as an artist, I have a certain aesthetic or like the song is about a certain thing and needs to, therefore needs to sound aggressive or whatever. Or if I want to be, if my goal is to be on a certain playlist where things obviously sound like that or whatever, without trying to recreate the exact same thing, then there are probably some decisions you have to make to increase the chances of that happening. And I think that then these questions and those, the, the planning and these, the why behind it and who, who this is for, and so on and so forth. I think this informs engineering decisions. And so you have to ask yourself this before you. Before you move on at some point, because otherwise I could see, I don't know if I'm there, like I'm just imagining myself mixing a song and the band gives me zero direction. And yeah, I can do what the song tells me, but if I don't know what the band actually wants, what they like, what they don't like about other music, what their goals are. And I can only guess, and I can only hope that my interpretation of what the music tells me is correct, but I could be completely wrong. But if I have that direction, if people have asked themselves these questions, I most of the time have a very clear idea of what to do to help them achieve that. And those are always the projects that end up. You know, where, where everybody's ends up happy and, and like, um, people actually achieve their goals. So this is why, why I'm, I'm always asking people this and why the planning is important, but not before that initial part. I think somewhere in between there. Yeah. Here's

Malcom: another, uh, idea from, from the book that I found really fascinating.

And it was like the idea that nobody will perceive your art the same way. So your song's not gonna make somebody everybody feel the same way. It might be a sad song and there will be, uh, you know, make people feel sad. Like, bold, broad thing. Yeah. Maybe. But why they're, they're gonna find it sad. Is gonna be totally different for everyone,

Benedikt: you know, depending on what they've experienced in their life

Malcom: and like Yeah. Or where they heard it. Like, I've got a John Butler trio song, showed it to J B T. Uh, that like, makes me so sad, uh, because I associate it with a funeral that I went to. Yeah. Um, the song's not about that funeral. It's not about that person. Yeah. You know, it's called Peaches and Cream. Yeah. But, and, and, but like, it, it, it is a, it makes, it has extremely specific memories for me. And J B T didn't write it with that in mind, you know, like, he could never have predicted that that song would mean that to me. Um, so I think the, the suggestion was more so instead of trying to make people feel. try and make you feel something, and then they're gonna, people are gonna interpret it their own way from there. So, which is really interesting because I think maybe prior to that, thinking about that idea, I would've been like, okay, what's the message? Message of this song? We're gonna convey that message, but really you have to make it for yourself and, and tell yourself that message, or whoever you're writing it to, that's another possibility. But you're, you, you only really get to communicate with yourself or one other person maybe, and then everybody else interprets themselves. So it's just like, uh, yeah, that, that's, that's a huge thing that changes everything if you think about it that way.

Benedikt: Absolutely. So glad you brought that up. There's actually a core concept that he, he follows. Yeah, he follows throughout the, the book where he says it multiple times. The, and he says that in interviews too. Um, the audience comes last as something he always says. And what he means by that is at, of course we want it to be heard and we want to reach people, but when we think, when we create something from nothing, we don't think about the audience. We think about we, we make what, what we want to make, whatever we want to make as artists, we do that and maybe we write it for one other person, like you said, somebody you can clearly communicate with, but not for a general broad audience. Later in the process, it's a little different thing, but that's then more like, how do we market it? And, and, and that's a different thing. That's not the artist's job, basically. Or like for some people these days it is, but you know what I mean. But in the beginning, when we are really in artist mode and creation mode, we make it for ourselves and only. If we are really, really, really happy about it. And, and if it makes us feel something, we are onto something. And if it's something that we we're not sure about, but we assume people are gonna like it, that's probably not gonna work. And that's not how you create art. And that's so cool because I forget that sometimes I'm so, I'm such a planner and I'm so strategic about everything that I sometimes forget to just do it for myself and don't care about any outcome or result or anything. That's why, why I wanted to talk about this because in the beginning that all of that, none of that does matter. Later in the process, it matters. And in the craft phase it matters to a degree because there is such a thing as like a certain commercial standard when it comes to mixing and mastering. And, and even Rick Rubin follows that because he knows that, you know, you gotta do certain things for it to be successful and to be heard. Um, but in the beginning, when you create the art, the audience comes last. Yeah, that,

Malcom: that's, yeah. Hugely powerful idea of like, just not worrying about what somebody else is gonna think it's about entirely.

Benedikt: Yes, totally. Cool. So if we think about it that way, and we separate the craft and the creation, then another thing is hap it happens, is we can show up to do either, um, to do either or, and we, we can focus on the task at hand and we'll get the most out of both instead of constantly doing it all at the same time. So, like you said, Malcolm, when people move too early into the craft phase, when they're actually not really sure what they wanna create, it can be difficult to do either of them. Right? So just throughout the day in your life as an artist, be creative, capture ideas, always be in this sort of crafts phase. But then when you take something and, and move on with it and develop it into something, at some point, move away from that a little bit and move into the crafts phase. And then, um, And then focus on that. Similar to what I describe in my process when, when I say when you're in the session with an artist or yourself, ideally all you need to f you want to focus on is getting the best possible performances, like really capturing this moment, focusing on the performance, on the vibe, on the feeling of the take. And not about how to, you know, set up some piece of gear or navigate the doll or, uh, if the song is even done completely written or whatever. These are are things you sh there's another time and place for that before and you should prepare that. But being able to just focus on one part of the process is, is huge. And if we don't think about it that way, we're constantly in both modes basically. And this is relatively hard to do because then we ask two strategic questions when we should actually just create freely or we are not focused enough when it's actually time to execute. And it, it's kind of hard. So I think separating the two is, is a really good idea. Absolutely.

Malcom: Yeah, there's, you don't want to confuse the, the steps. I think that's a big part of it.

Benedikt: Yeah. While being open enough to creativity throughout, because you never know the, the best, you know, you can have the, sometimes in the session, some spontaneous thing is the best idea ever, and then you have to just do it. That can happen. Absolutely.

Malcom: You know, but Yeah. And it's so fun when it does. Yeah. But if it, but if the entire recording session is about that, you're not gonna get a lot done. Exactly. And you're, and you essentially are, are admitting that you don't have a clear vision

Benedikt: yet. Right? Yes. So there are some notes I made for myself that I wanted just talk about some cool parts of the book, uh, that I wanted to bring up. So, for example, he says, um, Annie Warhol, uh, one of the most famous artists of all time. They, I didn't even know that, um, I didn't study him that much or anything, but like, I didn't even even know that. Um, Rick Rubin says in the book that Annie Warhol didn't paint a lot of, um, like there's many paintings of him, like many pieces of art that he didn't do himself. He had the vision for it. He wanted to, he, he wanted it to look a certain way. Um, but he actually hired people or had people ex executed for him. He didn't, he didn't even do it himself. And that's totally fine. And it's one of his, the, some of his most famous, uh, pieces that people actually absolutely love. And he just brought up that example as like, it's a skill to know that when you are not the best person to actually do the job. So you might be an awesome, um, guitar player, but for some reason this specific thing, there's another player that is just better at that. Or you might be an awesome mixer, but you cannot mix your own. Maybe you're having a hard time mixing your own music and handing it off to someone else is the better idea. You know, it doesn't mean that you are. You are a bad artist or a bad, bad at your craft or whatever. It just ma, it just means that there's, in this situation, there's someone else who can do it better. And that's a skill to be able to know that and then to be able to al also follow through with that and actually do it. And, and Rick Rubin does that so well, he knows exactly what he can't do well, and, and, you know, so I just love that. Absolutely.

Malcom: Yeah. That's, uh, that's very telling actually. It's like, yeah. As successful of a painter as you can imagine, didn't do it all themselves. It's like, why? Yeah, why, why can't musicians? I mean, some musicians told the get on board with that and, and I've had very successful careers as a result. Uh, but it's, it's a hard jump to make. So consider that. Yeah.

Benedikt: Totally. Then he says, he asks a lot of what if questions in the early stages, like before he starts to plan, like when, when everything's like really free and creative. And I love that too, where he says, you have something that most people do in a situ, certain situation, some best practice. And then he goes, what if I do the exact opposite? What if instead of, you know, you hear something that you have to do? I don't, I can't think of a good example now, but he always tr takes every piece of advice or every best practice that there is and asks, what if I do the exact opposite? Or what if I go, um, you know, what if I record on the beach instead of in at, at the studio or if I, you know, these sort of crazy things, the exact opposite of what people tell you to do. And most of them won't work, but sometimes there is. There's something that is just, that is just the right thing to do. And he constantly keeps asking himself these what if questions in all kinds of directions, um, before he enters like sort of the craft phase. And, and I love that. Yeah. Uh, he, he says often it's the exact opposite. Sometimes it's slightly different, but always like, what if and not, and everything is allowed, you know, just ask these questions and then try it.

What if, you know,

Malcom: that's, uh, yeah. When I said that this book is challenging me to think in different ways, that's one that I'm really challenged to consider because I can just imagine being the producer and the artist is just like, and what if and what if and what we're, we're never gonna get anything done. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but, but he's not wrong. Like, it, it, it, you're going to eventually discover something very cool and interesting. Um, so, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to. Take that idea seriously, but I do struggle with it, with my brain. Um, but if, if I were to take that approach, you just need to allot the, the right amount of time Yes. To explore those what ifs.

Benedikt: Yes. And we have to add here. He doesn't do that in a, like, this is not done when you book a studio. Yeah. Maybe if you have the budget for it. But this is not, when, when people come to us as producers, they book a studio to record their record. We're not constantly asking what if questions in that situation, because there's no time and budget for that. But you have to imagine that in, in Reuben's case, he's working with the artists a long time before they actually even go into a studio. They would go, like, they travel, they spend time together at some house or whatever. They would go on walks. They would, you know, he, he, they spend a lot of time together, you know, capturing seeds and develop them into developing them into drafts. During that process where he's with them, like in the writing process or when the artist is on their own. Um, that's where the what if questions make sense, but not then when you actually booked a, a bunch of people and engineers in the studio and all of that like that, that would drive everyone crazy. So it cost a lot of money too. Yeah, exactly. And, and it's probably, it's also a lot of money too if you do that with re recruitment. But you just have to put that in perspective that. He's the type of producer who would spend a lot of time with people before it's time to track. And this is something I think that many self recording bands don't even realize or are aware of, that making a record doesn't, isn't like you jam in your jam space and then you go to the studio and you record it. There's this whole pre-production demo writing phase before it that that's been, that people do when they make like these professional records. And people might not even be aware of that process, that producers are oftentimes involved a long time before you even enter the studio.

Malcom: Yeah, yeah. That's a, that's a huge separation between like the, that level, uh, big budget level, uh, productions. That's a very common case is this pre-production phase is a huge thing that, uh, a lot of work is put in by the artist and the producer. Um, And then there's a recording where at the indie level, that whole step is skipped usually, which is a bit of a mistake. And I mean, is a, it's easy to understand why, because bands can't afford to double what they, they're paying their producer usually. Um, and, and it's at least that amount of work to like, you know, if you're gonna do two weeks of recording, you definitely need two weeks of pre-production, I would say. Um, and, uh, yeah. So it's easy to understand why, but. As the self recording band podcast, we just encourage you to do it on your own. Yeah. So if you like, I mean, we're encouraging you to do the record, the production, and recording on your own too. But if you are gonna hire a producer and you can't do that pre-production phase with them, just just make sure you do it yourself at least.

Benedikt: Yes. Which is exactly why I created this coaching program, by the way, because if you work with me there, I'm not just gonna show you how to operate the doll on your interface and capture your tracks. We're gonna work on all these other phases too, like the arrangement, the pre-pro, the demos, and people are always surprised how long it actually takes until they actually get to record something. And this is exactly why. Um, So, uh, yeah, and, and, uh, if you need help with that, by the way, like shameless pitch here, if you need help, uh, with that, by the way, go to the self recording bant.com/call and let's chat about this on a call. Um, what that would look like. So another concept, he says that it's also, that I also loved, he talks about the revision process. Um, and he, he's not only talking about audio, by the way, it's like aimed at artists in general, but he always uses like audio examples because that's his background, of course. And he talks about the revision process. And I don't know if you got there already, Malcolm? No, I don't think so. I, that, that was so cool because he says the way people usually do revisions is they listen to a mix. They, um, make a bunch of notes, like a list of, of things they want to change. They sent it to the producer, the mixer, they implement those changes, they send it back, and then people. Look at their list, listen to the song and check if the things that they wanted have actually been done. And he says, that's so wrong because everybody does that and it's understandable. But the, you do it because there's an ego, um, that, that, that plays a role here where you want to make sure that you got hurt and that your, uh, suggestions and your comments were taken seriously and that people actually implemented that. And when they've done it, you, you like, check, check, check, check, check. Everything's done. Cool. Mix is done. The be, the better way to do it would be to make your list submitted. Let them do the revision, then listen to the new version without looking at the, at the list again, and just create a new list. And there might be things that were on the old list, there might be completely new things now that happened as a consequence of those changes. Um, some changes might turn out to be not a good idea or they have like side effects that you didn't expect or whatever. But just try to listen to it as if you heard it for the first time without looking at your previous list. Because it's not about making sure that they actually did everything you asked them to. It's about making sure that the song is done and you don't really know if your comments really made sense. But, and, and that, I thought I loved that because that's exactly what everybody does. They wanna make sure that their comments have been implemented and then it's good, but they forget to. Listen to the song again, and, and double check if it actually works now.

Malcom: Yeah. They're, they're just listening for changes, which is like, what? That doesn't matter. In fact, like, this seems like a good idea to, to implement before you even make a request for revisions. Like the first time you listen to it, make a list and then do it again, but make a new list and see if the same things are on it. Right? Like give it a, a little time between and make a new list as if you hadn't ridden the first one. Do they match? You know, maybe that thing that doesn't appear on list two doesn't matter. You know, maybe, maybe you were wrong about that.

Benedikt: Totally good idea actually. Yeah. Yeah, for, for sure. Um, I, I just, uh, thought that was a great idea and yeah. Awesome. Cool. Now, um, we talked about that. He says like, change the way you create, um, break your routines and patterns. Um, so there were, you know, he, there were some crazy extreme examples there. He said, he, he didn't say names, but he says he, he worked with some singer, um, they just couldn't get the right take or, uh, not the right take. They tried to come up with a vocal idea, actually with like lyrics and, and the melody and nothing they tried really worked and they were blocked and was frustrating and they tried all kinds of things and weird places and they really tried to mix it up, but nothing really worked. And then the singer just ended up. Um, he, he was like hanging upside down on the, from the ceiling and, uh, in a writing session for hours. Like, and he was like, um, you know, with breaks in between, but he was just hanging upside down from the ceiling, uh, and trying to get to ideas that way. And that actually worked. It was so uncomfortable and so outside of what he would usually do that it, somehow he was unblocked and was able to then all of a sudden have ideas and do creative things. You don't have to be that extreme, but it just goes to show if we just break our usual routines of patterns, if we go, it could be enough to just go to another room or move to another chair in the room, or, you know, just break some sort of pattern. Uh, go, go somewhere, rent some, some, you know, I don't know, go to an Airbnb for a weekend or whatever. Try to do something different if you're blocked. And that can really help. And some people might even go as far as like hang themselves upside down from the ceiling.

Malcom: So, yeah, there's. There's like endless proof of this. You know, when you buy a new guitar pedal, you invariably end up writing a riff, right? When you jam with new people, you write a song and you're like, we should start a band. Like it happens all the time. It's, and it's this new combination of ingredients yielding a new result. So it's like kind of an obvious one, but it doesn't, it's harder to recognize that you're stuck than, than you would think. So you don't realize that you've just been trying to make music in the same room over and over and over again with the same setup, same sounds, and you're just, you're not getting any new input, so you're not gonna get any more output after a certain point.

Benedikt: Yes. Yeah, totally. And I also think it's just a, I don't know what it is. If we are, if you, if there's just new impressions, new things around us that we don't know, I, I think there's like a subconscious thing where we want to explore what's around us. And so we are a little busy with like taking in all these new things, these new impressions and, and that may be frees up another part of our brain that can actually be creative then, whereas being, being. Exactly at where we always at, where we know everything and where we don't have to think about it. And then maybe we're too focused on just creating we're, we need some sort of distraction. That's also why he's, uh, he says that some people can do, can be creative when, while, like going for a walk or driving their car or, um, you know, washing dishes or whatever, some sort of activity that. Needs a little bit of brain power. Not much, just a little bit, but can basically run an autopilot. But it, it keeps you busy enough so that a different part of your brain is free to do other things. Um, and, and I can see how that works. And so breaking those, those, uh, patterns and routines does a similar thing. You just, you know, there's a little bit something new and exciting and then, uh, you, you, you kind of distracted and that opens up to other parts that are

Malcom: creative. Definitely. Yeah. The book deals a lot with that kind of subconscious level of thinking and creativity, which is again, like a hard thing for, uh, a very technical person like me to Mm, grasp and, and get behind where I just wanna be like, if I do this, I get this. But it, it's not as simple as that with creativity, of course. So it, it has been a good read for me to just like reassess those types of things. Yeah,

Benedikt: for sure. For sure. And then the other way around is also, uh, he says like, sometimes you have to. Some people need, um, routines and seemingly stupid rules if they help, you know, so sometimes it's good to break the routines and sometimes it's good to just stick to your routines if that's what you need and if that's what you need to function. And he says several examples too. I don't know who the artist is. I think in this case he even says the name, but I don't remember. He says that there is, um, two artists who would always write together, and they had a ritual where one of them would bring a suitcase. That was full of like silly hats, just silly stupid hats. And before the session, he would open up the suitcase and the two of them would like grab one of those hats, like randomly put 'em on. And then they would write. And that was their routine. Like they would just pick one of those silly hats, put 'em on, like, no, no, they would no talking about it. Like just put the hat on.

And then they would write. Which is hilarious.

Malcom: That is truly hilarious. He's like putting on like walking a day in somebody else's shoes. But it's it's a hat. Yeah.

Benedikt: I love that idea. But they, that's what they need. And they say they, they can't write if they don't do that. And Henry Grin says like, whatever helps, like, Do that, if that is what works for you, you know?

Malcom: Yeah. There, there, there is. Uh, it's hilarious. Cause this kind of seems like we're saying the opposite of what we just said. Yeah. But there's this, this artistic process that you can really hone and get, uh, protective of. Like, writers are notorious for this, where they'll have their writing routine in the same space with the same music on, or the same everything, you know, cup of coffee. And that's, uh, an effective way of the just training themselves to know, okay, when I sit in this chair, I write my book and, uh, that I don't stop until this time. And that's, I do that every day and it's always the same. So I'm always in the same mindset of this story. Um, and I think that could be used for music a lot as well. But I think on the flip side, what, what this book is really suggesting as well is like if you get stuck, vary the input. Um, yeah. And, and you'll probably get unstuck. Yeah,

Benedikt: and, and totally. And he's asked that actually too. He says that you show up and do the work anyways even if you don't feel like it. We've talked about that concept a lot. Also on the podcast. You don't have to do it for hours then if it just doesn't happen. But you still, if you don't feel like it, show up and do the work. Um, and the constant like making notes and inspiration, and that happens all the time, but there are still blocks each day or each week or whatever your schedule is where you just sit down, preferably in the same spot. You show up to wor to work basically, and you just write. And there's a lot of days where it feels like a waste of time because nothing comes out from it and you feel like you have to force it and it's not gonna work. But then there will be the occasional day where it absolutely works. And then when that happens, The key is then to have the flex if, if possible at all. Like you have to, the key is to have the flexibility, like when it comes to timing and everything, to then follow through and don't stop until it's done. So ideally you pick a writing block at, I don't know, Friday evening, Saturday evening, something where you, where you know when it happens, there's nothing after that that could stop me. And then you just show up, you do your two hours or whatever, and if it doesn't happen, you just quit and, uh, move on and do, do it show up again the next day. But when it happens, you can spend all Saturday night just following through until, until the song is done. Yeah.

Malcom: And slight little separation here. Writing can be creating these seeds, these ideas, just trying to work at stuff until an idea comes up. Or it can be harvesting those ideas that have already happened as well. So you pull up the phone memo of the, the riff that you thought of then hummed into your phone while you were working and you try and work on that kind of thing. It's both sides

Benedikt: of that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you can exactly. You can sit down and, and use those memos or you can just sit down and like look out the window and observe and wait until something happens that inspires you to start writing. And if not, then you just sit there for two hours and it's not a waste of time because you just showed up anyway. And then on another day something will happen that inspires you or you can go for a walk or whatever. You know that that's also part of the work, even if nothing comes out of it in at that moment. So both things can, can, can work. Yeah. You're right. And then the final thing is, uh, that I made a note about is the demo I thing. Uh, where this is, this goes into why at some point we need to move on and we need to have this, um, Like a rather systematic approach and, and move into the craft phase and, and just, um, also create deadlines and like structures for ourselves. Because when you spend too much time on something, you get so attached to it and so used to it that you are not open to any changes anymore and you not, you don't see any possibility to, to improve things or you don't, you know, when someone has a good idea, you can't just, you can't accept it. And that happens when you spend too much time on the project. So at some point after you have a vision and a draft that you're really excited about, You need to make sure that it's done rather quickly before you get so attached to it that you, there's no way you can change it anymore. There's no way you can, you can let those creative moments happen. Um, for the rest of the, the, the project that, that, this is, this, this tricky balance here where there there's a time and place for no rules, no limitations, nothing. But then there's also time and place for focused work. Um, and moving rather quickly before you lose any sense of like objectivity and perspective. And, and the demo I is real. Yeah. So, and the demo I is absolutely real. I'm battling with that a lot. Like I just had a project, I'm not gonna say who it is, but I just mixed a project where I love them. I love the band, I love their songs. Um, but I've mixed them, send them, sent it to them. I was super excited about them. And there, there were some things in the revision request that they had that made me really question my work, where I was like, really? Like, did I make that big of a mistakes? I I, maybe something went wrong. So I opened up the session to check if something went wrong. And no, it was exactly the way I wanted it to sound like, and I didn't really get why they would want me to change certain things that way. Until I listened to their rough mix again. I had to, I, I, I had done that in the beginning, but then ignored it for a while to be more objective. But then I listened to their rough mixes again, and I realized that these were all things that they had heard for a long time in their own demos and their rough mixes. And although I, I still think those weren't necessarily good decisions. They were so used to them that they can't hear the songs without those things. They, they, they can only hear them that way. And this is really challenging then, because I know that they're sabotaging themselves, but they just can't accept my, my suggestion because they've been listening to their work for way too long and should probably got, they should have gotten outside opinion. Quick, more quickly or hand it off to someone more quickly. The, the, I know that the production process took quite a while, and so they've, they've just spent too much time with their raw material. Yeah,

Malcom: yeah. That's kind of the times of essence situation again. Yeah. It's like the law of diminishing returns.

Benedikt: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And this is only normal, by the way, so I'm not throwing anybody under the bus here. Like this is a very normal situation and I'm probably the same when I write things, you know, if I've spent too much time with it. I love what I've, what I've done, and I'm have a, I'm having a hard time accepting outside opinions, and so this is very normal. Anything to add to this, Malcolm? This is a long monologue, basically, because I write, I read my notes here, but I, I, I, yeah, I just wanted to, to. Put that out because, out there, because I found it really, really interesting.

Malcom: Yeah, no, it, it's, it is inspiring. Um, and again, the guy's credits are just so out of this world. And, uh, if you're gonna check out his book, what's his book called again, by the way? We Should

Benedikt: The Creative Act. The Creative Act. The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. And what we talked about here is only like, scratching the surface. Like not even like Absolutely. This is such a long like read and great audio book. He reads it himself. Yeah, I was gonna say, I recommend

Malcom: the audio book because you can really, like, it's really convincing that he actually lives his life through these principles of like, Creativity first. Um, and, and really working on like the subconscious levels of creativity and, and just like non-tangible stuff that's really hard to get behind. Uh, so hearing him and believing that, okay, this guy's actually walking the walk, uh, and talking like not just talking the talk, you know, is, is impressive. Um, and, and makes me want to try and, and do things that way and see what results come of it. Um, and yeah, it, it's just really convincing. It, it, it's very counterintuitive to just grinding and I'm trying to work harder. So I think it, everybody should check it out if you're creative. And of course you're a creative if you listen to this podcast.

Benedikt: Yeah, totally. Also, again, goes to show that a producer, like it also, um, helps you understand, I guess what a producer actually is when we talk about a producer, because a lot of people like these days, the, the meaning of that word has changed a little, and we've talked about that on the show, uh, before too. Like someone in your band has to sort of wear that producer hat, and that doesn't mean they have to turn the knobs. Um, but they are like sort of, they have the vision. They are guiding the rest of the band. They are, um, like the movie director and, and the engineer and the producer, not necessarily the same person. And Rick Rubin is the perfect example for that, where it's really, he, he's producing without ever touching any piece of gear. He is just there guiding everyone in the room, building the team. And I think that's an important concept to understand too, because I really think that a lot of DIY mixer or like diy, um, um, recorders, producers, bands stuff, recording bands, they don't really have a producer. They have the musicians and the writers, they have an engineer. Um, maybe a mixer mastering engineer, but they're lacking a producer. There's no one who actually makes these creative decisions, who has these ideas of how the project will, will go. Like they, the person who, who plans that stuff out, who, um, yeah. They, they don't have that. They, they write, they jam, they practice, then they capture that in the recording process. They skip the whole thing that comes before that usually. And even while they're recording, there's no producer in the room. And then that's what they have. And so think about if someone can be the producer or if you as a band can be the producer, or if you need an outside producer, because I think that. It's in most cases or like in almost every case, it's really beneficial. And we also, we even have an, an episode I think that's called, like, you need a producer, even if that is yourself or something like that. Um, think about, think about that, the difference between the engineer and a producer and how you could implement that. Maybe you can sort of assign roles within the band. Maybe you have someone who loves the technical side of things, who has great technical ability, can operate the dock and edit and all of that. And then maybe there's a super creative person in the band who doesn't want to do anything with the gear, but has great ideas and the great vision. And, you know, maybe you can build like a team with your superpowers and, and, you know, um, make records that way. So that's a big takeaway from this too, I think. Uh,

Malcom: I think a lot of people that get burnt out on recording and stuff like that, it's, it's not the creative part that's burning you out. It's probably the over focusing on the technical side of things. And this book is gonna help you understand the creative side of things a lot better, um, and, and probably appreciate and value it more as well. Um, like, I mean, Rick Rubin values it above all else, and I, I don't think that would be true for most of our listeners at this point, uh, that they're putting equal efforts into creativity as much as they're putting into trying to make their guitar sound freaking awesome on the, you know, tone wise. Uh, so it, it's a really good wake up call and reminder about how important that first step of this whole process is. Um, and if you can keep that enjoyable, fun, and thriving in your musical life, it's going to make, make for a much more sustainable career in music.

Benedikt: Yes. Alright. That was a cool one. Um, well, we'll see after you finish it, Malcolm, maybe there's some other concepts that we can, you know, talk about in the future or that that, that we can just, you know, this is also an in inspiration for us and for other, um, episodes that we'll do maybe, maybe we'll pick up some, absolutely. Some concepts there.

Malcom: Yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to listening to more of it. I, I kind of think this is gonna be a very influential book on my life, honestly. It's, uh, it's quite

Benedikt: profound. Yeah. It, it is, it, it really is. Awesome. Cool. Now I'm glad we're back, Malcolm. This is a lot of fun. Let's, uh, continue on Monday and, uh, it's not too, too long until I'm actually at your place. Super excited

Malcom: about that. Yeah. We'll be doing an episode in Canada, believe it or not, together. Yeah.

Benedikt: I mean, can we say that we do that? I don't know. I don't wanna put any pressure on you because of the wedding and everything. We gotta, we'll probably get one done. We

Malcom: gotta make one in-person episode

Benedikt: happen.

Yeah. I'm gonna carry a little, like a small rig with me anyway,

Malcom: so you don't, you don't need to. We could, we, we can do it when you're, Staying at my place, you know, we'll

Benedikt: just gear. Okay. Okay. Because I mean, okay, we'll, we'll talk about that because I have a laptop with me anyways, because I gotta work. But I'm not sure if I actually need to bring a mic then, for example. Right. But yeah, up to

Malcom: you. Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah. And you can always borrow stuff off. Me too.

Benedikt: Yeah. Perfect, perfect. Looking forward to that. All right. Thank you for listening. Uh, this is a long one. I hope you stayed with us if you did. Thank you so much, and uh, we'll talk to you next week. Take care everyone.

Malcom: Bye.

Benedikt: Okay, bye.

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