#19: How To Record Drums With Only Four Mics

[00:00:00] Benedikt: [00:00:00] Yeah, again, it all comes down to what the song requires, what the sound is that you're going for. If you want it super tight and close and defined, if you want more vibe or both, and you can do overdubs or whatever, it's just very important to have that plan before you start and not just think, okay, like everybody does overheads, everybody just kicking snares.

So that's what we need to do. This is the self recording band podcast. The show where we help you make exciting records on your own, wherever you are, DIY. Let's go.

Hello and welcome to the self recording band podcast. I am your host Benedict tine, and I'm here with my friend and cohost. Mastering engineer from stone, mastering.com. Malcolm own flood. How are you? Welcome. 

Malcom: [00:00:45] Hello? I'm great. It's been an exciting week. I got a new microphone just on the weekend. So I'm excited.

Benedikt: [00:00:53] Tell our audience what it is that 

Malcom: [00:00:54] you got it. It is the slate. , it's kind of like a weird modeling [00:01:00] microphone where, uh, idea is using software. You can change which microphone had just trying to be. Um, and apparently it works like a hot damn, but I, uh, I haven't tried it yet, so I'm excited, but I don't know.

I like Betty, you said, uh, just cause I told you I was all excited. I had it and you're like, Oh, I, I actually have one. So you said it was good. I know our, our mastermind group member and who asked her, he has been, uh, a guest on your self recorded band community as well. John McLucas, he's a huge endorser of them.

He's he's the one that convinced me to get it. 

Benedikt: [00:01:31] Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It's amazing. I actually. And that tells you something about how, how good I find it to be. I actually sold my  that I had when I got the slate, Mike, because I didn't use it anymore. And, um, So it's totally worth the money. 

Malcom: [00:01:48] Yeah. I love the like Swiss army knife, pieces of gear that just handles so many different situations.

Like I got my camper, which handles 90% of my app needs. And then I got this, [00:02:00] which should handle 90% of the microphone needs. I hope. 

Benedikt: [00:02:03] Yes. Absolutely. And by the way, this is, if you are recording vocals at home. If you're getting a, if you're planning on getting a condenser microphone, that will be probably on my list of recommendations because it's not the cheapest thing, but it's so versatile.

And especially for like home recording people, they have were recording stuff. Or like when you can't afford many different microphones, it's just. It's a very, very good option. Like either that, or, or like what we have already said, like something like an SM seven or something like that. But if you're going condenser, the slate wine is probably worth looking into.

Yeah, definitely. And we're not endorsed or anything. It's just, we both use it and it's, it's cool. Yeah. Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:02:44] totally. Yeah. Other than that, I built a new bass trap in the studio and that's exciting for me too. I love tuning my room. 

Benedikt: [00:02:52] So you have it in front of you, I guess, right? 

Malcom: [00:02:55] Yeah. You can't see it on the video.

Yeah, no, it's, it's a, the bottom corner in front of [00:03:00] my desk. It's like, so where the wall meets the floor, I'm just kind of a little corner trap there. Um, and, uh, it's kind of the last spot I had available, honestly, there's, there's no more spots in my room to do anything. 

Benedikt: [00:03:11] Yeah. That's you have the same problem as I have, because your door is pretty close to the corner back there.

So I have the same issue in my control rooms. So I can't treat those, uh, those corners or it would be, I could, but it would not be symmetrical anymore. And I don't like that. I like surgery and all that. So, uh, yeah, I see. But that's a very smart thing that you did here with the floor corner. I have to say that because that's something many people just overlook.

It don't think of doing like everybody puts like the super chunk based traps in the corners, like where the walls. Meet a jet meet each other, but the, the seating and especially the floor corners, I don't see a lot of people treating those, some put up servers on the ceiling corners, but the floor eyes, I rarely see those, but it's the exact same effect.

So it's just another corner that you can treat. And it's actually pretty like. [00:04:00] I guess it's, it's not as visible or not. Like it doesn't hurt the aesthetic. 

Malcom: [00:04:05] Uh, if you have the space in front of your desk, it's like the perfect spot. Nobody, nobody even sees it. You can hide cables behind it. Uh, you don't even have to Mount it.

You know, it just like. Fits in there. So it's the easiest, easiest one to do. 

Benedikt: [00:04:17] It's great. Yeah. And you can't overdo it with those. So if you thinking about improving your acoustics, the bass trap stuff definitely do it. You can't overdo it like the, it will never have a completely flat base. So a response, so yeah.

I just had a, by the way, I just had a, an amazing, um, workshop with yes. Colo hand, because you were talking about the guest appearance of, uh, with tonic Lucas and the community. And I did the same thing with yesterday, or last week we had, uh, an acoustics, um, Q and a session, which was very great. And, um, all of that will be inside the self recording band Academy.

So we did it live for the whole community. So all the email subscribers and Facebook group members could join. [00:05:00] But now the replace only available as like a bonus workshop bonus content in the surf recording band Academy. That I am about to launch by the way. So we're a very close by the time we're recording this, it's like a couple of weeks and we will be launching the Academy.

Finally, I spent the whole last week, uh, filming, um, outlining filming videos. It's it's a monster of course, but, um, like it's very digestible. Small videos that are easy to consume and very well structured, but it's a lot of content. Yeah. If you're interested in that, if you're interested in, um, getting a, like a step by step system that takes you through the whole production process, basically as a self recording band with a lot of videos, PDFs, bonus workshops, coaching, call sessions, all that.

Um, you can sign up for the waiting list. And if you go to the self recording band.com/academy waiting list, you can just easily sign up there. And you're the first to know when it launches also you get a, um, a better, [00:06:00] um, price basically because there will be a launch price and it will, after that, it will never be as cheap again.

So if you're signed up for their waiting list, you'll be the first to know when we launch. And I'm so super excited for that. It's been. Probably the most exhausting thing I've ever done since I'm a minority professionals. Like it's, it's been a crazy big project and it's been going on basically this whole year, but I have a super cool, better testing community that I'm very, very grateful for.

And they helped me get the course to the point where I'm really excited and I can't wait to share it and launch it. So if you're interested in learning and I'm getting a full system on how to record yourself, Go to the self recording band.com/academy waiting list. And I'm glad to have you. So yeah, that's what was happening here right now?

I like filming the course. 

Malcom: [00:06:51] I mean, we're recording this a couple of weeks in advance from when it goes live. So yeah. It's like, if you hear this, go check it out. Cause it there's a possibility that it is already live, but it [00:07:00] probably will be. Almost live, I think by 

Benedikt: [00:07:02] the time I think so I have to still implement some of the feedback that I got from, from testers, but it will be, at least it will be close, so, yeah, exactly.

Right. 

Malcom: [00:07:12] That's exciting, man. 

Benedikt: [00:07:13] Yeah, I can't wait. It's super, super amazing. All right. So, um, today's topic has nothing to do with acoustics or. Condenser. Yeah. Maybe condenser microphones, but nothing to do with locals or acoustics or any of the stuff we've been talking about. It has to do with drums again. Now we're back at the topic of drums.

And we're talking about something that many of you probably find valuable because it's a typical DIY scenario that you have an interface with limited, uh, inputs with limited track count, and you might want to record a drum kit and you, maybe you have only four inputs. And if that's the case or less even, and if that's the case, if you have like two or four inputs, We're gonna help you get the most out of that.

And in [00:08:00] this episode, we're trying to give you some suggestions, what you can do with those inputs to still capture the kit so that it sounds powerful and, um, modern, and that it can work in a mix. Right. So where do we start with this? Um, I think we should start with the four channel setup because I feel like.

Less than that is still possible. And we can touch on that a little bit, but I think four channels. It's like the least amount of challenges you need to get something that you can make punchy, modern, and big and a mix, right? 

Malcom: [00:08:33] Yeah. I agree. And I think that's where a lot of DIY people are probably starting out.

Um, cause there's a lot of great and, and affordable. Uh, four channel interfaces. Um, like the, I know that UA, um, universal audio is like starting to push a four channel one pretty hard now, which is actually pretty expensive, but, but that's like a, that's a good middle ground, you know, um, where it's like enough channels to do drums.

Um, But [00:09:00] not so large and expensive that you're kind of like blowing your, your entire budget on the interface. Um, and I know, you know, focus, right. Everybody does a four channel. So I think that's going to be the most likely situation and a good spot to start. Um, even if we're talking to people that have like an eight channel or something like that.

I bet there's probably, they might need those inputs for something else. Maybe they have somebody recording a scratch, vocal live with them or something, you know? So four channels seems like the perfect kind of scenario for us to, to, to use as like a, um, a situation reference. 

Benedikt: [00:09:37] Yes. And also, I think it helps even for people with more channels, because, because of what you just said, and also, because I think it's worth trying to get a great rum sound with.

A limited amount of inputs and then only add what you really need, because some people tend to start out with like 16 channels. If they have them, if they have a digital digital desk or whatever, [00:10:00] and they kind of throw mikes at the kid in hopes that it will be sounding great. And it's, there's actually value in trying to get a drum set to sound good with as, uh, less, I can't speak right now 

Malcom: [00:10:13] more or less is more like 

Benedikt: [00:10:15] with a limited amount of microphones.

So. Um, there's value in that because you learn how phase really works, you'll learn, um, what difference it makes when you move a mic a little bit and how to position those mix. Well, and you'll find that getting a really good punchy sound with not as many mikes would even, well, maybe even turn out, punch you in better than doing the same thing with more mikes, because you have more phase issues, more bleed and everything.

And once you have that down, once you know where to place those four mikes, you can always add more for the stuff that isn't covered properly yet. But it's a great idea to start with that before you, um, do it with a lot more mix [00:11:00] and just introducing more PR more problems. 

Malcom: [00:11:02] Definitely. Um, That really kind of drives the first point home is that you have to think about what, what your goal is, what is the context and the reference like Sonic reference of what you're trying to achieve, um, because it actually gets pretty simple when you only have four channels to work with and you just kind of like think of a drum sound in your head.

And it becomes pretty clear what the main contributing factors to that are, you know, big, huge roomy sound while you're probably going to want to consider the room, mic situation, uh, where really tight, punchy kick and snare focused motto that, you know, it's like, it's almost in the name, you just focus on those core elements to kick and snare in that case.

Right. Um, so the first question you have to ask yourself is what are you trying to achieve? 

Benedikt: [00:11:50] Yeah, isn't it funny that this is always kind of the first question, like the whole goal and sound in your head thing? And it's so weird because it seems so logical. [00:12:00] But when I remember when I was starting out, I never really thought about that.

I just started, put microphones up, recorded, and then I kind of tried to figure it out if that was good or not, but I never really followed that sound in my head or try to achieve that, but that's actually how you do it. And nowadays, when I teach people, and everything we say on this podcast, it's basically about the same theme of having a vision, having a goal, and then just following the right steps until you reach that goal.

And it's so simple, but it really is the way to go. And it makes things, decisions so much easier because then there's just certain decisions that make sense and others that don't. And, um, yeah, 

Malcom: [00:12:45] what we're trying to like drive home, I think is that you can't just do what the L like the last thing you saw, like, um, when you're starting out, it's really tempting just to be like, okay, well, this is how the sound guy at the show did it.

I'm going to do it that way. Um, cause it's all, you know, [00:13:00] Uh, or it's just last thing that worked for you. Um, and you really have to be flexible in this industry to get the results you want, because what worked on one song will not necessarily work on another. 

Benedikt: [00:13:10] Yeah, totally. So what would you. Do like, let's say, if you're talking about the goals, let's say we're what, we've, what we both work most on is I think modern rock music, some sort of modern, loud rock music.

So for something like that, um, let's say you record a rock track. It should sound modern. It should be something that can be maybe played on the radio. So, so not a really niche or noisy thing, but just like clear. Punchy loud rock track. And you only have four inputs. What would you do or what would be the first things that you would focus on actually, right.

Malcom: [00:13:44] I mean, I'm always, I could say like 99.9% of the time, I'm going to have a kick and snare mic up. Um, so like inside the front of the kick. Mike and then a top stair mic. Um, I can't really [00:14:00] imagine a situation where I wouldn't do that. You'd almost need to not have those drums for me to not make them. Um, so that's where I would start.

Um, but then depending on, uh, the song and, and again, the like Sonic goal of what we're trying to achieve, it would change from there. Um, Because I've had, I can't even remember what song I did this on, but I didn't do rooms or overheads on one song. It was just kick snare and Tom's, and it turned out awesome.

There was enough bleed for like a cool, simple sound. And we wanted this distorted, like, you know, Uber compressed pumpy thing. And the bleed just kind of got brought up through all of that. So that really worked in this situation where we wanted like close mic only, you know, but in most cases I would probably do.

And I wonder if this is what you do. I do kick snare and an X, Y uh, overhead. Um, I think that would be my go to with four mics. And so if anybody doesn't know what an X Y [00:15:00] set up is, by the way, that's when you get two mikes and you put the capsules together at the same point, so that the sound is hitting them at the same time.

And that results in this, like really meet a perfect phase relationship for those two mics. Um, so that makes for a really easy and consistent, uh, overhead set up because the phase is going to be really simple to deal with and, uh, makes a kind of a narrower stereo image. And then some, like, let's say a space pair, overhead setup.

But a really punchy and you can't really screw it up. 

Benedikt: [00:15:32] Exactly. Yeah. So the definition would exactly be 90 degrees and the capsules as close together as possible. Um, that would be the quote unquote, correct X, Y setup. And it's exactly what my com says. It's not too wide, but it's super accurate when with an X, Y the only difference is like the level.

That the sound pressure difference in the microphones because the microphones are pointing at different parts of the kit, but they are in the same spot. So there's no time difference. That's just the [00:16:00] sound pressure difference. And if you put the microphones apart, if you do a space pair, so like the, the overhead setup that you've probably seen the most on pictures, like where's one overhead on one side of the kit and then one on the other side.

Or like an RTF, which is like the exact specs are 110 degrees, 17 centimeters apart, or roughly 6.7 inches apart, uh, in the middle of the kit with those setups where the capsules are not in the exact same place. Do you have the sound pressure, the sound level difference, but you also have a time difference and that time difference, um, causes cancellations causes it to sound a little wider.

It's like a psychoacoustic effect that happens there. And. But what also happens is the, the image is not as accurate, whereas an X, Y is not wide, but super accurate. And you can spot exactly where the Toms are. The symbols are, it's like an accurate representation of the stereo image of the kid. And because of the X, Y will likely be somewhere around the center of [00:17:00] the kit.

You will have a pretty strong kick and snare in the overheads, and you will have some Toms, especially like the rectum. And the overheads. So that can be a pretty cool thing to do with limited inputs. I absolutely agree. And I would probably do the same as you did, because you were asking, um, I have two, two examples that I can tell people, um, of approaches that I had to do.

And, uh, it totally dependent, like, as we said, it totally depends on the song and the goal that you're trying to achieve. So. Two years ago. I remember I was mixing a pop punk record and the band only had four inputs and they wanted a very modern pop punk sound, which is difficult to do with four inputs because you, but normally you would, you would use a pair of overheads.

You would use room mikes, and then you would close Mike everything basically to get it super punchy and defined, but they only had four. And what they did was. They did exactly that, that it kicks snare and an overhead pair. I don't remember if it was X, [00:18:00] Y, but it was select two overheads, but what I had to do then, and I couldn't make it work, what I had to do then was I used those microphones.

I added samples, but I also. I add it. Mini notes, like manually draw a drew in the mini notes for the Toms, because there were not as many Tom films. And I just looked at the overhead tracks, figured out what the Tom hits were. And then I just programmed the Toms to these overhead tracks and like put samples in there and chose samples that sounded natural and organic with the overheads.

And it sounded like there were Tom mix. So I had that and then I triggered room samples along with it. And all of a sudden I had a full. Kate going with just four inputs. So that was one story where it worked out really well. I did another project where we did something completely different. So we also had the overheads, but we did not do kickin snare, but we did only the Thompson two Tom's.

And the reason for that was because it was the opposite. Um, Like songwriting thing, like the [00:19:00] opposite, um, thing is with the pop punk record, there was a very simple kick and snare patterns and not too many complicated things, but there were wary complicated, Tom fills and roles, and it was like a noisy type of.

Song and programming, those Toms would have been so tedious and also would probably have sounded pretty fake because there was a lot of detail and all these fast Tom rules and everything. So programming that wouldn't be, it wouldn't have been as awesome. So I decided to use the tem mix for the Toms and just trigger a program, kick and snare instead, because that was the easy part.

It was just like, Basic kick and snare patterns, then you could easily program that, but the Tom parts would have been too hard to, to, um, recreate. So the, it totally depends on the song and what you're going for. And, uh, yeah, and then we did the same thing, room Mike's room samples and everything, and it worked out just fine.

Malcom: [00:19:56] You were, uh, programming the kick and snare. [00:20:00] Uh, visually to the overhead mic then 

Benedikt: [00:20:01] in that case? Yes, exactly. I think I was able to trigger the snare because this now was the loudest thing and the overheads, so I didn't have to program it. It just detected the loudest hits and then triggered it automatically with a little help manually, I think.

But, and the kick, I pretty much put the notes in there by hand. Yeah. Right, but it was still easier, but it was still much easier like after, especially after it was edited. Uh, and I could just like put the mini notes in there, quantize it and then go in and correct it a bit so that it matched like with the overheads and also the overheads were filtered.

So there was a high pass filter with, so there was not much of a phase problem between the cake sample and the overheads. So it was pretty easy to do compared to the very complicated Tom fields. Yeah. Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:20:45] that's very cool. Um, a situation that came to mind for me was a band that wanted like straight upset.

They wanted the led Zeppelin drum sound. So it was like, Oh, okay. Well, what we'll do is the Glen Johns making technique, which is like, [00:21:00] You know, it was just famous for that led Zepplin sound. Um, so that's, uh, like usually a format set up anyways. I think, you know, I, I can't remember if Glen Johns did the kick and snare or if he just did the kick, but anyways, I did it with the kick and snare.

And then, uh, in this case you've got like essentially a mano overhead above the drummer and then another, uh, microphone kind of off. The floor, Tom, um, to the side and you kind of automate that in as needed, or sometimes you can leave it up depending on the performance, but it's, it's a really cool sound.

It's got a sound, you know, um, and it's amazingly well balanced and, and huge sounding. Um, but that's just like another example of what's the situation. What, what does it call for? And we want the Zipline drums. Well, let's do it. The led Zepplin way. 

Benedikt: [00:21:50] Absolutely. Yeah, the Glenn, the Glen Chan's is great for that.

And it's, as you said, it's generally a great idea to try. I, I like it actually pretty much. I think [00:22:00] they used a kick drum in the original. Uh, the way they did it, but I, I'm not sure if they used to close my kick drum or if they just put a third microphone at the same distance in front of the kit, because that's what many people do.

So you basically have one mic, like 40 to 60 inches over the snare drum of the center of the snare. One at the exact same distance over the rim of the floor. Tom I'm pointing across the kid at the high hats. And then you have a third microphone, either as a close mic based drum microphone, or in front of the kid, again at this, with the same distance to the center of the snare.

So it will pick up a little bit of the kit of the kick drum, low end outside of the cake, but it will also pick up a little bit of all the shells and maybe some symbols, but in front of the cake, I think that that's maybe what they did, but I don't, I'm not sure, but either way you can, you can do whatever you want.

You can add a snare drum, you can add a close my kick drum. You can do the front of the kid thing. Um, and then you pan the microphone over the snare drum. You pan that halfway to one [00:23:00] side and the mic over the top. You pan that all the way to the other side. And then you get a pretty balanced, cool stereo image of the kit.

It's not like. Exactly a natural image, like the X, Y, but it's a pretty wide, pretty cool image and it keeps the kick and snare in the center. So that might be worth trying. And you get a lot of ambience, a lot of ring and resonances from the shells. It makes the kit really sing. And that's what that's Apple and basically did.

And if you do that in a room, that's why be vibey and, and like live as well. Then it gets really exciting. Like if you it's probably. More exciting in a big open space than it is in the small, um, um, that room. But yeah. Anyway, it's a great way to get some ambience to get some vibe and yeah, try that.

Definitely. Definitely. 

Malcom: [00:23:48] Yeah. And, and taking these old techniques, classic techniques and messing with them, it's an adding like, cause for example, Mike, okay, well I want it to be a little bit more modern. So having a close kick and snare. [00:24:00] It was like, I'm just not going to go without that because I still want those to be able to just like really punch.

Um, so you can always tweak these things to suit your needs. 

Benedikt: [00:24:10] Yeah. And what about, what would you do if say you have a band that wants mano drums or is okay with mano drums so they don't need the image? I know a famous example would be in the heavy music world would be there's a band called code orange.

They used to be called code orange kids in the beginning. I think now they call code orange. It's a very, very heavy hardcore band. Kirpalu produced some of their records and, um, I know there's one record. I think Kripalu did it where the drums are completely mano. The guitars are super wide and it sounds insane.

It sounds a little like. It sounds kind of crazy because you have this very focused mano, but super punchy modern drums in that center, then there's basically a whole left and right of that. And then on the outsides are the very wide, super aggressive guitars, but it sounds pretty, pretty [00:25:00] cool. And so let's say a band wants something like that, or they just don't care about the image and the drums can be mano.

What would you do then? Like how would you go about the overheads and what would you do maybe with one microphone that is left then if you just put them right there. 

Malcom: [00:25:15] I would do kick snare, mano overhead, and then mano room, um, like depending on the room, the room would dictate where that Mo that monitor room ends up.

Um, but I would definitely take advantage of that extra spot with a room. I think, um, the exception being, if it's like a, sometimes there's songs that really need a high hat mic to me, like if they're just chomping on it and that's like, The really important part of the beat is the high hat that I might choose to get close on that.

But then I might do a close on that and still go with the room instead of the overhead even. Um, but yeah, mano, a mano trumps can be really cool. I love actually. Um, and yeah, I know. It's awesome. I like I'm on an overhead, [00:26:00] especially like sometimes I'll do a monitor overhead, but still do stereo rooms. And that can be really cool as well.

Um, so like, cause generally my rooms are quite a bit further than my overheads are. Um, and so it's kind of, that brings up the width. Uh, but the overhead is still really punchy and up the middle it's quite, uh, you can really manipulate the stereo image with those guitars. Like you were kind of just describing, they kind of seem to sit out extra wide when there isn't a very wide drum kit in the mix.

Um, yeah. Yeah. It's all circumstantial of course. But I would say most cases do a model overhead at a model room. 

Benedikt: [00:26:36] Yeah, that sounds, that sounds cool to me, because if you think of a band, like when you're watching a band life, if you think of a stage, you don't like, you don't hear the drums, like super wide.

Usually it's like, if it's a festival and the big PA, then yes. If everything is miked and they do stereo or whatever, but if you go to a club or if you just listen to a band, like what's coming off the stage, You [00:27:00] don't hear stereo drums. Yeah. You hear the drum kit in the middle of the stage and you hear the guitar calves left and right of it.

And that's basically what it sounds like when you position that in the mix that way. So it's actually a more authentic organic representation of a band, like positioning their stuff on a stage or in a room, right? Like you rarely having, yeah, you're done. You don't listen to a real drum kit with your ears right.

At the drum kit. So you can hear left and right. You're always listening to it from a distance and then it will get very narrow actually. So yeah, for organic stuff, that absolutely absolutely makes sense. I'm just curious about the mano overhead, how I would position that. It's it's interesting because you said the high hats.

It's interesting because I don't typically Mike, I always make the high heads if I can, but I, most of the time, I don't even use that mic. Right. I sometimes use it for when I want very detailed articulation, like extra top end and very detailed stuff. But in the scenario that you described when someone [00:28:00] was really like hitting the high head hardens, the main part of the, of the beat is I find that in those cases, the high hats are usually pretty loud on the overheads.

But maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe you want more, I guess you want it to be more direct now, not just volume, but more in your face. 

Malcom: [00:28:16] I guess when I'm going with like a strip down for my situation, I'm kind of embracing like dirty and, and just gonna, like, I'm assuming that I'm going to make everything kind of like smack pretty hard.

So I'd like be more prone to distort a high hat with like, Devil lock, which is a plugin that I absolutely love or something like that, you know? And, um, and for me, I've only kind of just started realizing this, but I tend to like either be heavy with my overhead and light with my room Mike or the, the reverse.

So it's like, almost like I treat them as the same thing in a weird way that they are. Uh, providing space and, and symbols and a lot of cases. Um, and I don't necessarily need both, uh, to a huge [00:29:00] degree. So in this case, if I had like a room mic that was kind of accomplishing my needs for that situation, I might.

Give up on the overhead and try it somewhere else. Probably not. In most cases, like I think for most songs and overhead and a room's going to be the right call, but it just really depends on like what the song is, you know? And if, if you're only using four inputs, it's not the same as having like 18 to 24 mikes going.

So you can change it on a song by song basis. That's a huge advantage actually. Is if you're recording your band with four inputs and what's working on one song isn't working on the next song just quickly move one microphone, like yeah. Yeah. So not going to throw everything out of whack, like, like it could in a larger setup.

Benedikt: [00:29:48] Exactly. And that, that brings up a pretty cool way of thinking about it actually for me, because what you could then do is. You could not use the mana [00:30:00] overhead at all and just use a pair of remix because when you get further away from the kit, you will have like with a one mano overhead mic, you'll be pretty close to the kids still.

So depending on where you point it, like some parts of the kit will be louder than others, you probably won't be able to get both crashes equally or the Hyatt or the ride, something will suffer probably. But if you go a little further away from the kit, if you use room mikes, You can have the whole kit on those room more and you could even use a pair.

So you get some. Image like some width. It's not like really mano, but you don't get an accurate image and not super white rums, but you can do, like, you can have some width and it's not just a super mano thing, which can be cool. Right. So in that case, it might be worth thinking about not doing overheads at all, but just kick snare and a pair of roommates, depending on what your room sounds like.

Of course. But that could be a good idea just because of the distance, because you get further away from the kit and that will make the balance [00:31:00] better. And if you want ambience, that could be cooler than one monitor or head and one monitor roommate. It could be cool to just use stereo room mix. 

Malcom: [00:31:07] Yup, definitely.

And room like really roomy drum recordings are really in style right now. Um, so experiment with your room, see if you can unlock something kind of magical in it. Um, cause like each room is different. So that's where you can kind of find this hidden character that really makes your sound stand out a little bit.

I think. Um, but being the devil's advocate, another cool approach is to not focus on the room at all. Uh, so, you know, kick snare, maybe just like a mono overhead, and then that extra mic gets to go live on whatever is most important, or maybe it's a stereo overhead, whatever, but then you could always go the route of.

Uh, usually in room samples or on your close mics or, uh, passing them out to like a reverb, uh, to create like kind of a foe rooms, um, set up. So that's just like where you're taking your mix, that you've recorded, throwing them to an ox, [00:32:00] track, throwing a reverb on that and kind of creating an artificial room, um, that you can kind of blend to taste, which can be really awesome as well.

Um, I don't have to do that too often, but it's definitely saved my butt a few times. 

Benedikt: [00:32:13] Absolutely what like that. And so many ideas pop out right now because I just, I get excited when we talk about this, because I love Ru mikes and I love exciting vibe at character mix and things like that. So there are so many things that you could actually do.

And now I'm just thinking of that right now, while we're doing this. So what you could do would be the rebirth thing, or you could do. And I did that a couple of times you could record overheads and kick and snare, and then you, or. Kick snare and Toms and no overheads, whatever. And then. You could, and I did that and it's actually pretty exciting.

And then you could play back that recording, get a balance. That sounds cool. And then put that out through your speakers, put a speaker in a cool room and re record that room, like ramping rooms basically. And that can be [00:33:00] super cool. You can take a speaker to whatever room sounds great. Um, turn up the drums that you recorded, put a microphone in a cool spot, record that, and then blend that in with the recording that you did before.

That way you can do, you can use the inputs again. So you have four inputs, but then you have like another four inputs when you do the ramping thing basically, or re rooming thing. So that can be really exciting and unique. Because what I like about those techniques is it's always unique. If you use room samples, someone else, if it's not your own sample, someone else will use the same room samples.

And if you are creating your own room sounds, that is what really gives the character to the drums. Even if you use samples on the close mix, and if you can come up with some unique space and ambience and room, that is always exciting. I think so you could absolutely do that. Or you could set up, um, If your room is not too exciting, or if your room is not too big and it's not really ambient and you don't get an exciting room sound, [00:34:00] you could still come up with cool ideas to create that.

So, one thing I did in a very small room once it was absolutely fantastic, very vibey and unique, so not suitable for every situation, but it's worth a try is. First thing is that's a pretty basic technique, but you can point the room mic away from the kit. So you can put it as far as possible from the kit and then turn it like 180 degrees away from the kit, which makes the room appear to be a little bigger.

So that can be cool. And you get, usually get less symbols and more shells. And. Yeah, that that could be cool. Or you could put a big, if you have something like that, you can take a big ride symbol or something like that. That like resonates and rings. When there's loud noise in the room, put that ride symbol on a stand somewhere like away from the, as far away as possible from the kit.

And then behind that right symbol, you can put a microphone. And Mike Mike up that symbol and that symbol will ring and resonate. It will also be a little shield, so you won't have as much symbols actually coming into the mix. So it [00:35:00] will be a little more shells and that ride symbol will add some ambiance and some, almost like a reverb.

And it's it's, it sounded very cool when I tried that. So you can awesome. Do weird things like that, or just. Find something in the room, some weird spot in the room where it can throw the mic in and see what it sounds like. Maybe you have a, like a radiator that rings like crazy when some, when you play drums and you can throw a mic behind that.

Or I don't know, like I heard a story of, again Kirpalu who was doing a record in another room with a Baton out at his studio. And there was for whatever reason, there was a canoe, uh, hanging on the wall in that room. And he just put a mic inside that canoe and use that as a vibe, an ambient mic. So you can do whatever, whatever you want.

I think you, you told me about the tree. 

Malcom: [00:35:45] Yeah, whatever the thing that's down the road at a studio called silverside sound. They have like this big, huge tree root, um, think it's just massive old, gnarly tree root, um, strapped to a wall. It looks really cool, but I throw an S 57 in there every time I'm [00:36:00] recording drums there and just crush it, you know, it's just like, and sometimes it works.

Sometimes it's just garbage, but I'm going to do it either way. Cause the band loves it and it's fun for me. And it's just like, yeah, we gotta try this so that they also have like this, uh, this studio used to be a winery. So then just like this big old, like, uh, like cask for wine and we just like Uncorked it and threw a mic in there one day and that sounded terrible, but it was like, you know, fun to try.

Um, sure. Yeah. I had a, a more advanced idea, but I think a really cool idea for people with limited inputs, uh, that I think that's really perfect for like the, for input situation and. That is this idea of like, if you still want the Hi-Fi drum, um, sound of close mic, everything, or at least most things, what you could do is close mic, your kicks near, and Tom's hopefully you only have two times and then actually overdub your symbols.

Oh, yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:36:57] So 

Malcom: [00:36:58] record just the shells, [00:37:00] uh, with them close, close mic, or, or, you know, it doesn't have to be that way. You could still have roommates on them or whatever, but I, I would probably go close to making this scenario and then you strip that and set up overheads and rooms are spot mics on the symbols, whatever you decide sounds best.

And then just record the symbols to your previously recorded shells. So you're overdubbing the symbols, which is like a more modern approach that is. Becoming pretty popular. Um, I know that Royal blood did that on their stuff and, and nothing, but the tube, two bands that are really killing it with the massive sounding recordings these days.

Um, and that would help. That would really overcome the problem for you. If, if you really think you need more inputs, you can just do it this way. 

Benedikt: [00:37:43] Yeah, absolutely. I, I think though it's absolutely worth trying. I think though, that it's pretty hard to do. I've never done it personally, but I've heard from, from people.

And I can't imagine that it's pretty hard and that there is this story of lamb of God did that and they did it on a metal record. And I, I, and I [00:38:00] think, I don't know if you've ever downloaded those stems. We are both like nailed to mix subscribers, like URM subscribers, where you get a, like multitracks every month to make sense.

There was a lamb of God session where we got the original multitracks for a Lambo godson, where they did it that way. And I downloaded that and listened to it. And it's, I mean, Chris Adler's playing is insane anyway, but, and he's one of the greatest metal drummers ever, but, um, Like it's insane. What he pulled off there that too, imagine separating that in your brain, like the feet and the shells, and then the symbols and doing that in separate takes, it requires you to be, I don't know, a beast of a drummer and it's people think that it's easy.

And there's the story where people were saying, Oh, this is all fake. And Chris Adler couldn't play like the drums on that record. And so they did symbols and shell separately. But that's actually not the case at all. Of course he can play that. And he's one of the greatest drummers and he does live like does a perfect performance life.

They just did it for Sonic [00:39:00] reasons. And it was actually very, very hard to do. 

Malcom: [00:39:03] Yeah. It's very tricky. 

Benedikt: [00:39:04] And I think you actually need a good drummer to do that. It's not like a crutch. If you can't play the parts, you need to be able to really play it. And, uh, and it's yeah, it has to be super tight. Otherwise it will sound weird.

Malcom: [00:39:16] So it requires total preproduction. Like we talked about in, I think the previous episode or two, two episodes ago, uh, it, you really got to have that lined up in advance, rehearsed that way you have to have some kind of solution for it. Like sometimes they'll put sponges on the stands, so they have something to play, you know?

Uh, it's definitely tricky and it's not only tricky for the player. It's also tricky for the engineer. Whoever's running the computer. Cause you're going to end up with a mountain of tracks that you have to make sure it stay sinked up. You have to make sure that if you do any editing, you've got them both in mind.

Um, Yeah, you have to explain it to whoever you're sending it to mix it. You know, like it's, it's a big thing. Um, definitely not for the faint of heart or undetermined. Um, but I that's, it I've done it and it was cool. It was cool. 

Benedikt: [00:39:58] Totally great idea. And especially if [00:40:00] for the modern stuff, ironically, so it's not a, it's not only a way to overcome those four inputs.

It's also, it may be a good idea sonically because you can then. Without using samples or with very minimal sample use, you can just crush like the, the close Mike's compress a lot. You can get a lot of attack and ambient and Vincent vibe out of those without bringing the symbols up. And you have total control over the symbols as well.

You can have a really smooth top end and really punchy symbols and you can, and really punch the shells. So it actually opens up a lot of opportunities that you're not ha did you don't have when everything's on every mic, basically. 

Malcom: [00:40:38] Yes, definitely. 

Benedikt: [00:40:39] Also that brings up another thing that I haven't thought of when we're prepping this episode, but it's also a thing that's getting, that's getting more and more popular and many people are doing it or have been doing it for a long time.

Is if you have a middy input, you could use a kick pad. You could completely get rid of the kick drum. You could use your four inputs for, [00:41:00] I don't know. Um, Overhead snare and roo Mike or mana overhead sneer and Tom's or whatever. And then just put a kick pad there and trigger and let, just capture the middy notes and then trigger the kick drum.

And many people do that, even though they have enough inputs, but in mental, it's totally common to do that because you'll get a very consistent kick drum sound. You have no kicker and bleed in the overheads. Um, so that would also be an option to actually using a kick pad. Yeah, 

Malcom: [00:41:30] definitely. Um, just like now that we're going down this rabbit hole and like so many options, uh, like, you know, maybe, uh, metal bands on that topic.

They, it was like, you know, sometimes there's like a little splash symbol or a China symbol. That's really important to them, but doesn't really like, often it's like way too far away from the kit or like in like the center, which doesn't really sound awesome sometimes. Uh, so you can just overdub those single elements, you know, rather than like having to set up a whole.

Like pair of stuff, you can just spot mic, one mic, have them hit that you could place it [00:42:00] wherever you want just manually. Um, you know, so you can kind of split things up and get creative that way. Uh, one more idea for the limited inputs solutions kind of stuff is that you could record your own samples of room sound shots as well.

You know, so if you want to have close mic Toms and everything, so you can't really afford to have the, uh, the room mix up or something. You could just set up room mics and get like samples of each drum individually or something. And then that might give you some flexibility down the road when, when you hand it off to mixing.

So they have like the sound of your room on these close mics that they might be able to use if they want to. 

Benedikt: [00:42:39] Absolutely. That's, that's a very good idea, actually. And. Yeah, again, it all comes down to what the song requires, what the sound is that you're going for. If you want it super tight and close and defined, if you want more vibe or both, and you can do overdubs or whatever, it's just very important to have that plan before you start and not just think, okay, like everybody does [00:43:00] overheads.

Everybody does kick and snare. So that's what we need to do. There are no hard rules. Not at all. There's just one thing I would try to do at all times, usually in that is when, no matter what you do, I would try to keep the kick and snare in the center of the image most of the time. So I would try to do that.

I would always be careful with phase we've covered that. And I don't know what, what episode was it? I have to look that up. Um, if you don't know what drum phases, because this is very relevant, relevant to this episode as well. Uh, it was episode number four. Um, so be careful with the phase, be careful with keeping the equal distance from the snare drum and kick drum, or at least the snare drum.

Whenever you put up overheads and Glen Johns recorded, man, whatever. Um, Then just decide what what's the right vibe for your song. And by the way, I just said it, but I think we haven't touched on it. Like there is a technique called recorder man, which is also a pretty interesting, and I liked [00:44:00] that a lot actually in the days when you put one mic, uh, 32 inches above the center of the snare drum and another mic, 32 inches from the snare drum as well.

But over the right shoulder of the drummer, So it's basically sounds like that mix sounds kind of what the drummer he is when he's playing or she's playing the drums and you keep those two mikes like equal this equal distance from the, from the snare PanAm heart left and right. And you've got a pretty exciting picture of the kid as well.

And that, that Mike over the shoulder pretty much captures the whole kit pretty well. So you have the symbols, you have the Toms. And everything. And that can be also a very cool idea. You can also like use kicks snare room and just that mic over the shoulder, for example, to capture the whole kit. That could also be cool.

Um, again, no hard rules here. And the last thing I wanted to add, and I wanted to ask you if you've ever done that, because I always do that also with multimeric setups and like, that's [00:45:00] that Mike is always there, no matter what I do, sometimes I use it in the mix sometimes not, but I always like to have one, I call it trash Mike or dirt mic.

A microphone in the center, in the middle of the drum kit, like right above the rim of the kick drum on the beater side, uh, like it's very close to the rectum, very close to the snare. And I compress the shit out of it. Sometimes I run it through a sense amp or some guitar pedal or whatever, just to destroy it.

And, um, it's, it's very. Snappy as very VE a lot of attack. It has a lot of the beater attack from the kick drum, which is a different sound on the outside than it is on the inside of the cake, which is pretty exciting. And it has a lot of the ring of the shells. So I really liked that it loses the kit together.

It just pumps and it is energy. And it almost sounds like an ambient mic sometimes just because of the, the ring of the shells and. I don't know. Do you do such a thing? Do you have a spot where you like to put a mic in like 

Malcom: [00:45:58] close to the kid? I mean, I've got my tree [00:46:00] mic, but generally there's always something I've set up that is trying to know all the symbols as much as possible.

Um, so like to reject the symbols is what I mean by that. Um, often for me it's a ribbon mic, so it's a figure eight and I kind of like get the auth access, uh, on the symbols. And then, uh, that's going to be crushed 

Benedikt: [00:46:20] a hundred percent of the time. 

Malcom: [00:46:21] Um, so it's not normally in the position you're talking about for me.

Um, often it's kind of like more out front. I call it like a front of Kip Mike, um, with the knowledge at the symbols. But, uh, I experiment with it pretty often. Um, actually like a fun thing for me talking that we talked about earlier in this episode about switching it up on a song by song basis is moving that mic, uh, where I need it.

So like I've got everything else and then I've got this one trash mic that I'm moving around and adjusting the, how much I'm trashing it, uh, based on the song, you know? So like, it might be like, There's dirty mic. That's kind of up close for one song. And then the next song, I don't want a dirty drum sound, so I'll pull it back [00:47:00] and it's just like another mano room.

That's more pretty. And I've loosened up the compression. You know, all buttons in mode is switched off on the 1176 now. And, um, 

Benedikt: [00:47:10] so I've, 

Malcom: [00:47:11] I've always got something like that, but it's not really a crucial thing for me. Uh, and it's not something that I'm always doing the same way. 

Benedikt: [00:47:18] Okay. Yeah, that's what, again, you try and find something that has vibe and unique character, because as you said, like that's, first of all, that's popular right now.

So vibey, roomies, drums are popular. Um, and second of all, it's cool to have a unique sound and it's cool to have people. I would rather risk out out of the, do something risky. It could be, and that it would be super cool that people listen to a record you've done. And they like, wow, the drums on, on that record, I want to sound like that.

That's super insane. Wonder what they've done. So that for me is the goal. I always want people to recognize a certain sound and I don't want them to go like, okay, this sounds like. That other record that I like, [00:48:00] I want them to listen to the record and think, wow, that sound is what I want to have or how did they do it?

That sounds crazy. So I always want to, um, yeah, to get a unique sound and I want that to become a reference rather than trying to recreate what somebody else did. And that's something that's risky, of course, but I think that's, the art is not safe and if it's exciting to me, so yeah. 

Malcom: [00:48:24] Yeah. I think if you fall into that camp, my recommendation would be kick snare and one overhead or room, you know, like one balanced kind of kit image.

Mike that's either overhead or a room and then use that fourth channel. Cause we're talking about only having four inputs use that fourth channel as your. Like magic Mike and throw it wherever you need and get, get funky with that. I think every mixer would agree that they can probably make a good close kick and snare and one general kit, mano image.

They can make that sound good. You know, so you'll be covered in that situation. Um, so like you can get pretty [00:49:00] funky with that extra mic. If you have those other three bases covered. 

Benedikt: [00:49:03] Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it's probably a good idea to have, yeah. To have those basic mix and to have them clean and like positioned carefully so that you actually capture everything that's essential.

Uh, and then start with the vibe thing, because as much as I love it, you're totally right. If you don't have that at all, it can be very risky and very difficult to get a, uh, a great, great sound for the mixer. So, yeah. Yeah. Definitely try to get some, some basic balanced thing and. How would you go about deciding like, um, like again, that, that question that I asked before, how would you go about deciding where to point that one overhead microphone it's like, would you prioritize certain parts of the kit depending on the song?

Or would you even move it like during a song, like do one part with a mic pointing at that direction and then another part, like where he points somewhere else or, 

Malcom: [00:49:54] I mean, I guess you definitely could. You definitely could. Um, Yeah. You know, it, it changes, uh, it's like [00:50:00] sometimes I really want that snare to be present in the overhead.

Sometimes I that's the exact opposite of what I want. So it's just meant to be there for symbols. Right. Um, so I don't know if there's an answer for that. Uh, like, uh, like we've been saying room is so in right now that I might prioritize like a more mano room sound, which is just kind of trying to get everything in it, you know, which is easier in a room.

Um, So like, you know, I'm just gonna head out center probably six feet back, you know, probably down lower because symbols get in there no matter what. Um, but, uh, you do have to experiment and it, it depends on your room. And if you don't have a room, you know, like I've, I've always got the luxury of there being space in front of the drum kit to have a room, at least six feet away.

Uh, That could not be the case for a lot of people. So, you know, you might be better off with an overhead. 

Benedikt: [00:50:48] Yeah. I would probably move it a little, like either back behind, like where the drummer sits or the other way around and then angle it a bit and pointed at the kid maybe out. Um, I think you could get [00:51:00] more of the overall kit that way instead of just having it straight up in the center and because then if a crash or whatever symbol is or rise and blow, whatever, it's like.

Off center. You could be difficult to capture that in the center of the kit and an open omnidirectional make what makes sense. If you have a cloud above the drums, maybe you could try that and use an omnidirectional microphone that picks up. It 

Malcom: [00:51:21] could be very cool. 

Benedikt: [00:51:21] Everything around it. That could be cool, but I probably would try and angle it a bit and put it out a little.

Pull it a little out out of the kid and try to get everything in there as much as possible. I think that's, that's what I would do. And that's kind of brings me to the last thing that I want to add here, um, that you shouldn't overlook probably. And that is. Whenever you point that's also dangerous with X Y set ups, by the way, whenever you point a microphone at the kid or at the symbols, like an overhead or that mano, Michael, whatever, be careful when you, especially when you angle it and it points at a crash symbol, for example.

[00:52:00] The symbol will move when you hit it and assemble the way the, the sound like the way project sound is like there's underneath, straight, underneath, and straight above the symbol. That's where the sound is to the sides of the symbol. There's a knob point. There's nothing basically. And the symbol moves and.

Upper up above and below there, you can pick up sound and at the sight of the symbol, it cancels. And if you point an X, Y configuration, for example, in the center of the kid with the Mike's angled, 1990 degrees and the Mike points at a, um, a crash symbol and that crash symbol moves, you can see what I'm doing right now, but the crest symbol will move and it will move past the microphone potentially.

And at the, at that moment where the symbol like. The edge of the symbol faces that microphone, there will be a cancellation and it will be a very washy, weird kind of symbol sound if you do that. So you have to be careful to be high enough above the symbols or [00:53:00] to not point directly at the edge of a symbol to avoid that.

So that's why I prefer having the microphone point at the center of the symbols more than at the edge, because when the symbol moves, as I said, and depending on how, how tight they are on the stands and everything, but when the symbols move and they usually move a lot. Then you can get this weird phasey washy symbol sound.

And if you don't know where that comes from, and I've heard that often in PE in recordings that people sent me, that's a common thing. Sometimes it's a comfort or effect from reflections from the ceiling, but sometimes it's just the placement of the overhead mics. And, um, to avoid that, you can try to point the microphone at the center of the symbols and avoid.

Putting it too low. So that it's basically next to the symbols. Um, yeah, that's just one thing I want to add here. So if you encounter that, if you encounter such a weird phasey symbol sound, that might be the problem. 

Malcom: [00:53:52] Yeah, that's a great advice. Um, yeah. And so that could be placement of the overheads. It could be the move.

You could also place the symbols in different spots, you know, to make up for [00:54:00] that, um, uh, raise or lower the symbols, you know, so it was just solve that problem, but it comes down to exactly. Yeah. I mean, like we, I think we started this episode thinking we talk about half of these ideas came as we talked.

And so that really just shows like four inputs is no excuse. Um, that, that there's plenty you can do with that. Um, like actually I I've talked about it a couple of times, but I work on this documentary. Show where it's meant to be. Well, it is about rhythm. So I'm going all over the world, interviewing and recording drummers for this documentary.

And I travel with an eight channel interface, but generally I have to have a couple of those channels for lab mics and boom mics and stuff like that. Dialogue makes. So sometimes I only have four channels to record drums and I mean, it kind of sucks, you know, you got like, monocots the police and stuff are staying, I should say, not the police.

Um, but uh, like the world, one of the most famous genres ever, and I only have four mics to work with. I'm like, okay, look, this still [00:55:00] has to kick ass. And it will because it's catchy. Like, he just sounds unbelievable no matter what, but I, you know, it's like I have to get creative. I have to make it work no matter what.

And. You definitely can. 

Benedikt: [00:55:13] Absolutely. And that's just such a nice way to ant that episode because what you just sat here basically was no matter what you do. It's still the most important thing to just play an amazing song with amazing technique and a great sounding room. And if there's a great drummer, he or she will sound good, no matter what, basically like that's still the most important thing.

And even one microphone or two microphones or whatever that you point at this amazing drummer will still sound amazing. So don't be afraid to record drums. Just because of your limited track count. Um, and yeah, if, if what you're playing is actually good and if you're playing it with good technique or if you have a great drummer, just find a way [00:56:00] to make it work, but, um, the performance will speak for itself.

Usually. Definitely. Awesome. That has been a great episode. Actually. It's one of my favorites, I guess, because we just thought of so many things during the episode and it kind of got, got me excited to go out and experiment with drugs right now of my favorite thing to do anyways. So, 

Malcom: [00:56:18] uh, four channel drums is all I'm doing from now on, I guess.

Benedikt: [00:56:23] So like, I'm really, I love drums. I don't know about you, but I love drums in general. Like, and I always, I think it's also the thing that I, I tend to mix very loud drums and oftentimes, yeah. People will tell me to put the guitar, pull, like turning the guitar up more and it'll turn the vocals up more because I'm focusing so much on the drums and I'm always like, what's your damn problem.

Like, drums are amazing.

Malcom: [00:56:46] It must be the guitarist. Ask you for that. Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:56:48] Who needs, like you hear the guitars? Good. That's all I need. Like 

Malcom: [00:56:53] no funny. Yeah. 

Benedikt: [00:56:55] Um, but anyway, go out, experiment with that. Um, And [00:57:00] maybe I would, I would find it really cool if people would actually do that, do the experimenting and then send us the recording so we can listen to what they come up with.

That will be really exciting. So if you are a. Yeah, if you want to do that, that will be really amazing experiment. Come up with some cool sounds. Send it to us. Uh, that will be awesome. You can do that by emailing two podcasts at the self recording, bent.com and I will absolutely listen to it. And if it's cool, I will, um, maybe we'll talk about it on the, on the podcast, but I would definitely love to hear that.

Yeah. 

Malcom: [00:57:33] All right. Well, hopefully you enjoyed that 

Benedikt: [00:57:36] and thank you for listening. Yeah. Thanks. See you next week. Bye .