There are a lot of different ways to capture a bass amp (or bass guitar in general) and to dial in a great bass tone. And there are a ton of options to choose from, when it comes to gear.
- "Do I need an amp? If so, tube, solid state, class d?
- Which cab? Which mic?
- Preamps, pedals?
- Is a DI enough? DI box or DI out of amp?
- And most importantly: Why all of that? What exactly happens to my bass signals in the mix? How do I make sure I get my dream tone in the end?"
Don't worry, we got you!
In this episode we break down the different methods of capturing a bass guitar, our favorite approaches for different scenarios, the gear we use to get the tones we want and the "why" behind all those decisions.
Join us for another deep dive into the dark, muddy waters of bass guitar land.
Things Mentioned In The Episode:
Some Of Our Gear Recommendations:
Darkglass pedals, Sansamp pedals, Ampeg SVT amp, Ampeg V4B amp, Ampeg 8x10 SVT cab, Toontrack EZbass
Some DI Box Recommendations:
Countryman Type 85, Radial JDI , Radial J48, Palmer PAN 02, Little Labs Redeye
Kristian "Kohle" Kohlmannslehner and his "Kohlekeller Studio":
TSRB Podcast 033 - Bass Amp vs DI (How To Choose The Right Approach And Gear For Capturing Your Dream Bass Tone)
[00:00:00] Malcom: [00:00:00] Anybody that's hunting like the classic bass telling you all heard a thousand times, it's eight by 10 SVT and pared down. You should save your time. That's all you need to hear, but there's cooler ways than that to really
Benedikt: [00:00:12] get modern based stuff. This is the self recording band podcast. The show where we help you make exciting records on your own.
Wherever you are, DIY stuff. Let's go.
Hello and welcome. You're the self recording band podcast. I am your host and I'm here with my friend and cohost McComb, Owen flood. How are you?
Malcom: [00:00:37] Hello? I'm great, man. Thank you. Just had a wicked weekend, ate a lot of red meat on the barbecue, so good.
Benedikt: [00:00:45] So it's still summer weather in Canada?
Malcom: [00:00:48] Yeah. Yeah, it was, uh, it was nice and clearer over the weekend.
So we had some forest fire smoke. If anybody listened in last week, we talked about that a little bit and it cleared up. So it was like kind of back to being outside and stuff. It was nice. [00:01:00] Oh,
Benedikt: [00:01:00] that sounds perfect.
Malcom: [00:01:02] How about you, man? Awesome.
Benedikt: [00:01:03] Um, I was at a, at a meetup at the URM meetup, um, at, um, Christian cooler Kumon Salinas place.
So I don't know if you know him, if you're listening, you probably do. If you don't know him, he's a very successful, very well known metal producer in Germany. And we had a meet up there, uh, with a lot of cool people, about 25 people, I think. And we got a studio tour and we hung out at his place. And then we went to a restaurant and spent the evening there and I got to talk to a lot of amazing people.
Some of them, even like I found out that some of them are listening to the show, which is cool. So, um, yeah, I got to meet a lot of cool people, you know, had a, had a wonderful weekend and yeah, I just got out of the car driving back from that meeting. And yeah, it was awesome
Malcom: [00:01:53] right on. I wish I could have been there for that.
That would have been cool. Yeah, it was
Benedikt: [00:01:57] totally cool. Shout out to Christiane [00:02:00] cooler for hosting this. He was a fantastic host and so like fun, just a fun person to hang with and that goes for everyone else there. So yeah, it was really amazing. Awesome.
Malcom: [00:02:09] Yeah, his stuff's great. I definitely, definitely think I would have enjoyed that.
Benedikt: [00:02:13] Yeah, man, and his life room. Um, I assign it on the internet of course, a couple of times, but being in there, it's such a cool concept because it's actually a pretty small room, like it's high, but it's not super, um, yeah, the, the width and length are not too big and, but it's pretty high and it has a fantastic room sound, although it's not a too, too big of a room
Malcom: [00:02:37] and it was dimensions dammit.
Benedikt: [00:02:39] yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was, it was designed by Northwest acoustics. And, um, they do some crazy, uh, room designs, mostly mastering studios. This days, you should look that up. I will put a link in the show notes because it's spectacular. It's fantastic what they do. And just like, they're one of the. I think most expensive, but also best designers of, of mastering [00:03:00] studios around the world.
They do, like, I think they did Sterling and like the really big mastering houses and, uh, yeah. And a couple of years ago they did call his life room. One of them is think Thomas is his name. Uh, who was running the company, he's a, he's a metal and hardcore fan. And he was like you said, yeah, I haven't done a live room in a while, so why not?
Sounds like fun. So he decided that room for cooler and he had talked to us about it and explained the process. And it's just crazy how much detail work and how much precision. Was involved there and the room is just spectacular. It's nothing like, nothing more to say here is like really amazing. So if you ever get the chance to visit that place, or if there is a meet up again, or if you can like whatever,
Malcom: [00:03:44] just do it out of Germany.
Benedikt: [00:03:46] Super awesome. Anyway, had a lot of fun. Was it cool? Meet up great weekend. Um, and yeah, now I'm back.
Malcom: [00:03:53] Well, we should, uh, we should jump into our episode.
Benedikt: [00:03:56] Totally. Today's episode is actually. Usually [00:04:00] we're not so much about gear, but today's episode will be partly your talk because it's about capturing bass and it's about the different ways you can capture bass tone.
So it's about, um, yeah, the different approaches. And we're going to talk about what gear to use when to use what, and we also are going to talk about why. Um, or when those approaches make sense and why. So we're going to explain a little bit why we like to get certain types of signals recorded from people that we work with, uh, and what we do with those signals and the mix so that you can better understand why you should do or can do certain things.
I think it makes a lot of sense in this case, because you might be confused if someone tells you that they usually use three different bass signals. And you probably don't know why that is or why you should put in the effort and do that. And we're going to talk about that. We've got to explain our process.
We're going to talk about a personal preferences and we're going to give you some recommendations depending on the sound you're [00:05:00] going for, uh, which type of equipment to use and why.
Malcom: [00:05:04] Yeah. There's a, there's a lot of different ways to get cut, not the same result, but good results. Um, so. I was like, we might, we actually don't know going into this conversation, which is fun.
Like how I mix and put together bass tone versus Benny. We're not really, I'm not actually sure how you like to do it versus how I like to do it. So there might be differences. Um, but I do know other engineers who do it totally different than I do, and they still get good results. So we're gonna kind of run down.
Different ways that you might want to experiment with trying, and, but ideally you're going to probably find something that works for you specifically.
Benedikt: [00:05:40] Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and I'm sure there are differences between Malcolm and, and myself and how we approach things, even though we kind of work on similar genres, but there's a difference between the rock and metal and punk and, and, and also personal preference and taste.
Of course. So I'm very curious to hear, um, Matt comes approaches and yeah. Let's [00:06:00] start with like, talking about what kind of ways there actually are to capture, um, a bass.
Malcom: [00:06:06] Yeah. Okay. So first up DI is like the obvious thing to mention. Um, and probably the most common way of just tracking bass out there. A lot of people just don't even bother setting up an amp and throw a DI out there, get a good capture of the bass.
And honestly, that's great. Like that will. That will work. You can, that that will not stop you from having an awesome sounding record. As long as that, uh, DI capture is great. Uh, so some of the advantages there, um, of the DI is that it's like the cleanest signal, you know, it's going to be very versatile, um, in, in post production.
It's just like, this is what the base sounds like, period. And then, uh, It's also easy to monitor. I think it's worth mentioning, you know, it's, I've, I've kinda got two minds about this. It's easy to monitor in that there's no like distortion or effects hiding the [00:07:00] performance. So you're really hearing what's being played.
Um, and it's not going to hide anything like that. And the pitch is going to be really easy to pick out. But my other, uh, the other thought I have on that is that it doesn't, if you're meant to have like a really weird bass on this doesn't. Like represent that, you know, I like making decisions along the way.
So if it's going to be a big fuzzy bass tone, and it sounds like a clean jazz bass, that's a little weird. And then you're not going to really be able to make it, they creative decisions based on that. There's kind of aligns with this, but anyways, it definitely can be nice to have a clean bass on the reference at the same time.
And that's not to say, we should mention right now out of the gate that you can do all of these things. We're going to talk about. You don't have to just do one. Yeah,
Benedikt: [00:07:48] totally.
Malcom: [00:07:49] Yeah. Anything you want to mention about DIs?
Benedikt: [00:07:52] Um, for now? I don't think so. I will go back to it later. When we talk about why we use those things.
For now, I just think the DI is [00:08:00] basically mandatory is like, it's not optional for me. It's like, I always want the DI. Even if someone really commits to it bass tone on it, they want a certain bass tone. It doesn't hurt to just addition, in addition, like record the DI it's pretty easy to do. We've already talked about that.
Just split the signal, use it, the DI Box or if you'd recording directly to your interface, you already have the DI anyways. So just recorded the, I, you never know. Um, sometimes even if the bass tone is set and you really want your bass tone adding the clean low end of the DI, or like, you know, sometimes you just need it and it's there.
So. If, if at all possible, I always want a DI. That's all I want to say right now.
Malcom: [00:08:39] Yeah. I actually, I liked that the DI's mandatory. Yeah. That's definitely, yeah. That's the way to put it. Yeah.
Benedikt: [00:08:45] Do that, do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we go back to why that is and what we do with the DI. So you better understand, um, maybe one thing to add to it is.
Not like those specifics that are, that we can talk about later, but just if you recorded the, [00:09:00] DI recorded as clean as possible. So make sure it doesn't clip, make sure you're using the right type of DI box. So don't use an active DI with a very high output active bass that will clip or distort the cost of the DI to distort.
Uh, we're very careful with that because you, in many cases you want a pretty clean DI. Yeah. So that you can do all the things with it that we're going to talk about later. Whenever there's a lot of low end and Walton and you want big and clean, low end, you need the headroom and you don't want it to distort and clip.
Right. So that's the only thing. Um, yeah. And then, and then not to confuse it with the second, uh, the thing on our list here, the amp out. So you're using an amp without a speaker. And you're recording the output of the amp. Um, that's also sometimes called a DI because some manufacturers call it the DI out on the amp, but that's not the real DI that we are talking about here because the clean DI that we were talking about is the signal right out of your instrument.
The amp DI out is after the signal went through the amp. [00:10:00] And that can mean right after the input. So. It could be that it's just the input stage of the amp coloring the signal, or it could be post the EQ and the compressor or whatever is in the amp. Um, like right before it goes to the power amp. And if that's the case, it can be heavily colored of course, a new basically record the amp tone just without a cab.
So that's not as versatile as the clean DI out of the instrument, but it's still, if you have the inputs and it's easy to just plug a cable in there and record it, why not? I mean, you can do it. It's an easy way. You can get a great tone just from that. And you can record it in addition to the clean DI.
Um, it's curious
Malcom: [00:10:38] that. Like so many bass amps, most bass amps, it seems has this option. I post the DI, but no guitar amps. Do
Benedikt: [00:10:47] they really do? I think part of the reason is that Mo Oh, I might be wrong here, but I was just thinking that transistor bass amps are much more popular. Then transistor guitar amps, and you can run a transistor ramp [00:11:00] without a cap without destroying it.
Right. Whereas a guitar that he needed, it's like a guitar amp needs to be either designed to do that. Some can do that, or you need a load box or a cab to do it. That may be part of the reason. The second reason is that with a guitar, you really need the speaker or at least the speaker simulation. So if guitar amp has that, yeah.
If a guitar amp has a DI out, there needs to be some sort of speaker simulation, or it just won't sound like a guitar amp. And with a bass, you don't necessarily need that. The bass, um, can work like the line out or the DI out without a cab sim can work. So that's maybe another, another reason for that.
Malcom: [00:11:38] So I think maybe I'm wrong on this, but my assumption has always been that DI for base came into popularity actually do avoid bleed, um, in the studio cause bands used to track live more often. And bass amps just had this terrible habit of leaking into everything and eating up all your low end. Um, so the solution came just to record a DI, no [00:12:00] amp, and the bass player is in the room playing with them, but there's zero bleeds.
That's great. And that's totally true. Um, now in those situations, I could see the amp out being a real, real great thing because now you've got amp tone. Quotation marks on that. Uh, and still no bleed. And you can, you can kind of forget like a more live sound that way.
Benedikt: [00:12:22] Um, and the other way around on stage, because if you want to I'm Mike Bass on stage and you want to boost a bunch of low end, or do you want to compress it heavily or something than all, everything else on stage will bleed into that mic.
And you might get feedback even, especially if you're boosting a bunch of low end and the compressor and stuff. But if you just take. The DI out, you can do whatever you want with it live. So I think, um, yeah, having the DIDai on the, on the board life is much easier and more convenient than making a bass. So that, that might also be, yeah, that might also be like the bleed in both directions.
Malcom: [00:12:56] That makes a lot of sense. Um, okay. And then last but not least [00:13:00] you can of course make up an amp like. You would think to do in the first place. So you've got a bass amp running into some speakers, and then you're actually throwing mics on that. And we should mention, that's like really the only way to get a room sound on a bass tone.
Um, other than I guess some kind of IR simulation kind of stuff, but really this is the only way to do it. And that's not even, I should also mention that's not something you normally are going for, at least I'm not normally going for it, but occasionally. I do want that, and this is the way I get it.
Benedikt: [00:13:32] Yeah.
This is the way you get it. At least a realistic kind of room sound. There is another thing I like to do to make the bass a little wider because based it's usually mano and very direct and not like roomy. There is some things I like to do to, yeah. To make it a little more, a little wider and a little more realistic sort of, but I get to that leader and I don't use the mic for that, but.
But yeah, if you want a realistic room sound, the micro steel only way it will capture [00:14:00] part of the room. And especially the low end will be. Yeah, well like most rooms, even if they're treated the low end is still pretty as it is most of the time it's because most people cannot treat their rooms in a way that their low end is very controlled.
So you'll get a bunch of flow and reflections and it will color the sound. And yeah, if that's what you want, if that is part of the signal, then the Mike's the only option. Also, of course you get the color and the tone of the cab. Um, if you do that, because it also obviously affects the, and there's a huge difference if you are using whether you're using a 15 or an a four by 10 or eight by 10, or like the various cabs and the various manufacturers, if it's supported cab or a closed cab, all these things make a huge difference.
So, if you want to, if you want a certain characteristic of a certain base cab, certain bass speaker, then of course that's the only way to get it other than IRs,
Malcom: [00:14:50] right? Yep. And so, so we've mentioned DIs amp dis uh, I don't know what we want to call that post amp. And then, [00:15:00] uh, and then Mikey and we. Do you want to just mention that we're going to talk about like amp Sims as well.
Um, but that kind of falls into the DIs really? Cause they're just being applied to the DI, but that is the ways of capturing a bass right
Benedikt: [00:15:15] there.
Malcom: [00:15:16] Either grabbing a DI, grabbing it out of the amp or making it up.
Benedikt: [00:15:18] Yes. And also the absence, the choice of amp sim is that the same principles apply when choosing an amp in the real world.
So going to talk about which amps we like for certain things.mSo at the same thing, it's just true for the digital emulations of those. So, yeah. Alright. Um, let's start with, maybe let's start with the different types of. The general types of sounds there are and like what we do to get those. So when I'm thinking bass tone for like the various genres that I do in the rock world, there is, um, one thing that some, sometimes it's the right thing to do is, uh, a pretty clean, uh, big sound with a [00:16:00] full, low end, pretty clean.
You have a defined pick attack, but not too dirty, like a very clean, transparent sound with a big, low end. That's one thing. The opposite is a very mid rangy, current, almost guitar like sound. That's a little thinner on the bottom sometimes. Um, that's a little dirtier and not as precise. And then there is kind of a mix of those two, where, which is the kind of modern, heavy tone where you have the big, low end, but you have also the grit in the mid range and the end you have the distortion and you have this, I don't know what, how to describe it.
This metallic kind of, um, crystal cria, piano, piano, T note sort of sound that comes from strings, partly, but also from using the right amp. Uh, so those three things, general R and everything in between of course, are what I usually use. And there are different ways to get there. I don't know if what's, uh, in your, like the rock world and where you typically are.
Is there a go to, or.
Malcom: [00:16:59] Yeah. [00:17:00] So I think, luckily you and I have a similar, a similar idea. We have what we like like that in that the bass tones you just described are generally what I'm aiming for as well. Um, but what's gonna be cool is that I'm sure we get there via different methods. Um, so we're, we're kind of aiming for the same goal, but we're going to have different ways to get in there.
I'm sure. Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I like the, for me, it's generally, um, I, I really love dirty bass tones and I find that they can work even in softer music. Somehow. It just always seems to work less distortion. The softer I go, obviously, but, uh, you'd be amazed if somebody soloed my, my bass stems at how dirty I managed to get things without it.
Being noticed, I guess. Um, and, uh, so yeah, for me, like the bass tone in my head that I always want to hear is like, if somebody was hitting the lowest string on a piano with a drumstick yeah. Just like this ginormous blah. Yeah. And that's what I want
[00:18:00] Benedikt: [00:18:00] with various degrees of distortion, depending on the genre.
Malcom: [00:18:04] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So how, yeah, w if, if a band walked into your studio today and you were going to record bass, what would you probably set up?
Benedikt: [00:18:15] So, first of all, I would have a conversation with w what they are going for. So what we're going to do, and, um, let's just talk about some different scenarios when, like, if a band wants.
The thing that I like most, which is a pretty dirty as you just described it too, pretty dirty bass tone, uh, with the mid range grit and the right amount of growl, a little distortion, um, fall low end, but not too boomy, like a tight, low end, but still like. With some, some weight. Um, I would go for, I P absolutely track of DI, as I said, I always do that.
And then I would probably with most modern things, at least I would probably set up some sort of distortion pedal could be a dark glass pedal, could be a [00:19:00] sansamp, could be something like that. I would run that into a pretty clean amp. So it could be a class D. Power amp or some modern bass amp. And then I would, Mike.
An eight by 10 cab. I like those the most, um, for various reasons. And I would combine the DI with that amp tone. And maybe I would, in addition, take the DI out of the distortion pedal. Like I would take the, the SansAmp or the dark glass DI don't like amp DIs as much, but the reason for that is not that I don't like the sound.
It's just, that's some, DIs, um, don't work properly or sound weird or sometimes clip or I don't know. I have, I had some amps with like weird.DI outs, especially some of he Ampeg amps that I usually pretty much like. So if I want to get ore, more of a dirty sound out of the amp itself without a pedal or with just a little boost or something, I like the old tube Ampeg amps.
They are just amazing, but I never really liked the DI out of those. So I take the DI out before the amp [00:20:00] usually. Yeah.
Malcom: [00:20:00] Yeah, I'm the same. Yeah, we should just clear it up. Anyway. That's hunting like the classic bass tone. You've all heard a thousand times. It's a eight by 10 SVT, ampeg, amp. Tell me. And that like, that's just like the classic.
That has a sound. It really does work. And if you're, if you're looking for that, that's just how you get it. So
Benedikt: [00:20:21] you
Malcom: [00:20:21] save your time. That's all you need to hear, but there's cooler ways than, than that to really get aggressive, modern bass tones. Yeah. Um, so I'm, I'm okay. There's, there's always going to be a DI and then I would probably also have that going, um, These days.
I gotta say my camper is like my favorite bass amp in the world. I reamp through that all the time for, for mixes. I do as well. It's just like my instant make, make things sound like, but again, it makes it sound like an SVT, honestly, so that I'm always hunting that as a starting point. It seems, but it's [00:21:00] what I want to like kind of draw attention to, is that both yourself and I are going to have more than one.
Capture going on, you're going to have a DI and a distortion capture. So it's same, same thing as, as you, if, if the band comes in and they've got some cool fuzz pedals or something, I'm probably going to be using them in addition to a clean DI. Uh, sometimes it's like, literally my I'll grab the bass into the clean DI and run the split from that, into the bass pedals, into another DI.
So I've just got like a dry DI and a wet DI. And there is still no amp that like, that might even come up. Yeah. I, uh, I definitely. Don't gravitate to amps.
Benedikt: [00:21:37] Um, yeah, though. And that's the reason why, why I'm saying, even though I love the SVTs and I love the Ampegs and I, I played one live for a couple of a couple of years and I still use them and I like them, but that's why I said I use typically a more, just a clean.
Class D transistor power amp because, um, I like to have control when it comes to recording bass. [00:22:00] Uh, so I want the DI that I can always use in reamp. And I will sometimes use an SVT that I ran through or simulation of that, uh, that I'll, I'll add to everything I just said for the mid range of the character that these amps have.
But I want the DI, the clean DI for the low end. So I'll just blend that in for it to get a massive, low end. That's just cleaning. Yeah, just big, because it always gets smaller when you compress and distorted. So I just want the clean big, I blend that with the drive and the pick of tech that I get from the clarity that I get from something like the darkglass or the sansamp, preamps and their distortion.
I get a realism and the tone of the eight by 10, that I really love from the mic. And then the dirt and the character I get from blending. Sometimes blending a simulation of an SVT, for example, right. And running through the SVT while recording. I like it. I do that sometimes as well, but only if I really know that that's the tone I want to get because those such as so colored and there's [00:23:00] less control.
And if I want to have a very precise pick attack in a very big, low end, That might not be the best choice, but if I want a really dirty, classic based tone and I want to drive the amp bed, I will absolutely use an SVT as well. But usually I like the control and those pedals can do almost anything for me.
And the power amp is really just to drive the speaker it's so that's the way I see it usually. And then if I decide in the mix that I want the SVT tone, and then I just reamp it and blend it in.
Malcom: [00:23:29] So we're, we're pretty similar on that. Then we, we both really place a lot of importance on having the DI capture.
Um, but then we also want to get. Like we, we want to be listening to something that is close to the end goal. So we're, we're committing some distortion down to other, other channels. Um, I do that again, usually through a Kemper or, or like a colored DI rather than an amp. So I'd say most of the time I don't set up an amp actually.
Um, I just rarely, I just [00:24:00] don't use it enough. Um, the only time I really ended up throwing up an amp is if somebody comes in and they have a sound. They're like, they've really built a tone for themselves and that's what they're hoping to use. So they've got like, you know, after Royal blood came out, everything changed and the bass world, I don't know, anybody's heard them, but it's like, just like over the top fuzz bass kind of thing.
Um, octave pedals and all sorts of stuff. So when those bands come in, I'm going to capture their amps, of course, but I still usually end up using that DI to kind of recreate what we were going for. So, so amps, aren't really my thing in the bass world, but I, it's still fun to cat to capture it. And you told you can use them.
There's more to go wrong in capturing a bass via the amp with Mike's because of like low and build up in a room and stuff like that. Then there is via the DI and preamp. Sansamp darkglass, like you mentioned like that that approach is way easier to control. So I think for like a self recording band, [00:25:00] You should look into that area.
I think that's like a safe, safe play.
Benedikt: [00:25:04] Yeah. At this point, to give some recommendations, I would say if you are recording and rehearsing and you're not buying an amp for the stage to play live, I wouldn't even bother buying an amp at all, to be honest, just like Malcom described.
I would buy a great instrument. That's the first thing. I would buy a great bass, the right bass for your type of sound, then I would look into amp sims and I would look into preamps and pedals, if you want some flavor, some character, some type of distortion, and a quality DI input. That could be a quality DI box or the input of your interface if that's good. I would focus on that, on the recording chain and go directly in. I wouldn't even look into amps because good amps costs a lot of money and you could spend that in other areas that will do much more for you. If you're looking for something that you can also use live and you want to play with, like, you want to experiment with recording an amp that I would say if a big, low end [00:26:00] cleat, big clean, low end and clarity is your goal.
Go with something modern, transistor, class D. Power amp sort of thing, because those have a lot of headroom. They are really loud. Um, it's like the same type of, of power that's in the Kemper as well. If you have a Kemper with the power amp, Um, those are, they don't have, they don't really have a sound. The sound comes from the preamp and the pedals and everything before it, they just amplify the signal they allowed and clean and have had room.
You can play big stages with them if they have enough power. So if that's what you go looking for, you can use that. And then you're just free to do whatever you want before the amp. If you're going for the classic rock tone and you want some, yeah, like it's one of a one trick pony, but if you want like more.
Third, Margaret, if you are okay with the fact that it just distorts a bit, whenever you turn it up loud, the headroom is not as it doesn't have as much headroom. Um, and you don't need the super big, super clean, low end and clarity, then go with something like an Ampeg or a fender bassman, or like the classic bass tube amps or a V4 the Ampeg V4 before is a pretty [00:27:00] affordable.
A relatively affordable bass tube amp. That sounds great, but it has only, which is not much in bass world. It has only 100 Watts. I think. So to reproduce low end, you'll need more power than you need to reproduce a guitar mid-range signals. So the hundred watt tube bass amp will be loud, but it will be, it will distort when it's loud.
So it has a sound, it has character. It's a, it's a great amp, but it status versatile. So again, mid range dirty. Rock sound ampeg or any sort of tube amp, um, clarity, big, low end flexibility and high volumes that are still clean. Go with a transistor amp and put a pedal in front of it. And if you're just recording, don't do anything at all.
Just focus on the recording chain without an app.
Malcom: [00:27:42] Yeah. Uh, I totally agree with that bass. Bass live gear is kind of like a different subject then than recording gear. They shouldn't be considered the same thing necessarily.
Benedikt: [00:27:53] Yes. Yes. I just want to mention that because I think there are two camps. Here's some people are in a band and want to have one thing to do.
Both [00:28:00] others are just at home recording for themselves. So that in the amp is not really, really relevant. So, yeah. Yeah,
Malcom: [00:28:06] yeah. Totally. Definitely worth mention. So we should talk about how we put these things together. Probably. Um, because we both said that we liked to do multiple captures, so we need to describe how we get it to that, like the end result.
And by doing that, we're, we're hoping to give new listeners an idea of like, kind of how you could use these, um, tools as well and, and kind of different workflows that might appeal to you, just so you understand why pretty much, just so you understand why it's so important to cap, to have a DI that's really.
What is going to come down to
Benedikt: [00:28:42] yeah, yeah, go ahead. I'm curious. I mean, I always like to hear the different approaches, um, and I'm curious to hear how you do it, especially because the whole using multiple bass, sir, sources bass sounds is at least. As far as I know is kind of a typical metal thing or more, a [00:29:00] modern approach to processing bass.
And you are more in the rock world, not so much the very heavy stuff, but you still do some of these things. So I'm curious when and how you use it.
Malcom: [00:29:10] Okay. So I usually don't actually use multiples. Okay. Capture multiples. Um, and like I said, uh, we, we all, we want the clean DI but I really like hearing what we're going for.
So I try and dial that in. Be it with the kemper or be it with the amp, be it with a pedal chain or whatever, but there's always both. And then I'm normally monitoring that, that amp quotation marks a tone because that is what we were going for. And then come mix. I kind of just make a decision. Like when I mix, I, I like, I start with drums and then I bring in the bass and I'm going to just kind of AB and if I'm like, Feeling really good about the amp sound that we have.
I'm going to mix with that, but if I'm not. I'm going to grab that DI and make it sound like an amp kind of [00:30:00] thing. And where I do go kind of modern and metal, uh, steel tricks from the metal guys is that I do some like, kind of parallel processing where I split the tone of that source. But I think unlike you, Benny.
I could be wrong because you haven't really gotten into your method. I'm not actually using both signals at the same time. Um, so I'm not using the DI for the, for the low end and the amp for the top end kind of thing. I'm not splitting it up that way. I am just splitting it in the sense that if I had a DI.
I am only distorting the top end and not the low end kind of thing. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Benedikt: [00:30:34] Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Malcom: [00:30:36] So nine out of 10 times, I end up with just choosing one of the sources and then go in a, for lack of a better word apeshit on it until it sounds the way I want. Um, and, uh, yeah, so for me, like we've, we, we said we really both like distorted.
Base kind of thing. Um, so I use a tool called Saturn and that lets me split it and just [00:31:00] like pretty much the store, the harmonics and, and, uh, and really go, go nuts on the like upper, mid range and stuff like that. Well, keeping my low end on the cleaner side, that's kind of usually how I get there is a tool like that.
Uh, plus a lot of other stuff, but like that's kinda my main tone shaping tool when it comes to base.
Benedikt: [00:31:19] Cool. That's not so different from what I do. You just do it with on one track, basically with, with a certain tool. Um, but the idea behind it is similar. So at what I do is I actually use at least two, most of the time, three different signals and plant them together and they all end up on a, on a bass master or bass bus or whatever.
So, um, and what I do is. I take the bass amp sound or something that we committed to that is as close as possible to what we want. So I always track something like that usually. So it could be an amp sim that I was recording through. Could be a real amp, could be the set up that I just described the mic in front of a cab.
Just omething that represents the bass tone as a whole, [00:32:00] as much as possible. I start with the committed bass tone. Exactly. I start with that. And then usually, and most of the time in modern or heavy Sean, or also in punk rock sometimes, um, The Shriners that I do generally, I want a little more low end and especially I want, I want more low.
And then the very signal gives me because if you distort the whole basic null, the signal as a whole, including the low end, the low end, we'll get a little smaller and we'll be tight, but it will be a little smaller. Yeah. You don't have to clean big low-end anymore. If you do that. And also I want consistency in the loner.
That's even more important than the size or the massive low-end in this genre is these in punk rock and metal and modern metal. You need the size as well, but in punk rock, you don't need a massive bass, but you need a consistent low end so that when they play, I wanted to go up higher on the bass or they play like fast baselines and stuff.
I want the low end to be consistent. I don't want it to jump out and then disappear again, depending on what they play. Yeah. And what I do to get there [00:33:00] is. I'd take the DI and I copy that. I duplicate the DI Trek and then I do, I put a high pass and a low pass. So I put a high pass in one of the DI tracks and the low PEs on the other DI tracks, usually around two to 300 Hertz.
So I split the DI up into Lowe's and then midrange and highs. Yeah. Um, with the, the low pass and high pass at the same frequency with the same slope, usually in linear phase mode, even so that they, when they're combined, it's the exact same signal as if you would have just one DI, I leave the lower part of the DI.
So I'll call that bass low. And I leave that clean and just compress it as hard as I can without distorting. And so I use a very clean plugin compressor, like the fan filter C two or something like that. I find the cleanest setting possible and, and I compress it as much as possible so that I have a very consistent, low end.
Then I blend that with the committed bass track and see how that sounds. And then I take the other part of the split DI signal, which is the mid range at the top end. And I will add [00:34:00] distortion to it, or I will bring out the pick attack or whatever I like about the signal or whatever. I feel the original bass tone is lacking and our blant added.
So I, most of the time I end up with one track, the, the real amp track that is kind of the character, the mid range. And what the amp sounds like, and the stuff that cuts through. And then I will have a low Trek that fills in the low end. And then I will have the high track that usually does the piano type, like sound and some pick attack and some clarity.
Um, and that's what I basically do. That's, that's how I, how I approach bass recording. And if I only have the di I will have the, to split it, the DI Trek. So one is dirty and distorted and let us a lot of top end and definition and pick a tag. One is the low end. And then I will duplicate it once more. So I have 30 Heidrick and I will run that through an amp SIM that gives me the character I want.
So we'll run that through an ampeg or whatever I have and do the same thing.
[00:35:00] Malcom: [00:34:59] Yeah. I should mention that I do something similar in that I often duplicate my DI track as well and do something different to it. Um, so often that might be. Like say I do that, uh, thing with my main DI where I throw satin on it, split it.
So that I'm just a story in the top end, but I don't go too far. It's kind of like just turning it into kind of a normal rock tone, but I really want it to be extra gnarly for the song or whatever. I'll duplicate it and like throw the purchase is a free sansamp plugin that comes with it. And it's actually pretty awesome for distorting stuff.
It's really ugly sounding. So I'll just go nuts with that. And then I've got like this told the distorted. Crazy track that I can just kind of mix in there, um, with my, my like kind of amp sound quotation marks that's if all I have is a DI, it's kind of like, Build it in chunks, you know, and I'll do the same as you I'll, uh, I'll cut out all the lows on that track because I don't want that can messed up.
Um, [00:36:00] I want that to be more peer.
Benedikt: [00:36:02] Yeah, totally. And so that people know why that is why we do that again, whenever you want a lot of drive and character and overdrive and distortion out of a bass, you'll the low end will become smaller and you lose definition. You lose the pick attack, clarity. Um, so the, the biggest and cleanest sounding thing you get is an undistorted bass tone with a clear pick attack or finger attack, depending on how you play and a big, low anthis undistorted that we'll have, that will sound massive and full and round.
And whenever you get a lot of distortion, Going or overdrive going or use a tube amp or or anything. It will sound cool, but it will become smaller. And using those additional tracks, um, is a way to work around that. So I'll add in the last low end and I'll add in the last clarity with the top end, um, DI I Trek so I can have my dirty sound and still.
Keep the massive low end or the right amount of low end of the consistency [00:37:00] and still have the defined pick attack. So sometimes I don't go crazy with the distortion on the upper dI, I track, but I'll add something like decapitator or turn the tone up to the right. So it's a little brighter. Uh, we'll add some distortion, but I still aim to keep the clarity.
Um, right. Yeah. And maybe boost some highs or upper mid range. So I'll just fill in what, what gets lost when you really go crazy on a set and all that. That's the purpose behind it. And that's why I always want the DI because sometimes people can come up with pretty cool bass sounds, but they are just lacking in one of these areas.
Or sometimes they use pedals. That sound really cool, but a lot of bass distortion pedals totally kill the low end. There are some pedals that sound amazing. But you will have no low-end after it, or some people like to use a tube screamer on bass can sound amazing, not just for guitar, but if you use a tube screamer and bass, the low end is gone, basically.
And if I want to have some size in the mix, I need the DI to do that.
Malcom: [00:37:56] That's absolutely right. Is as soon as you have like this fuzzed [00:38:00] out at bass amp capture, the low end is really lacking. Really lacking. So the DI is our secret weapon to bring that back. That is the goal we want both. And, uh, so these are just kind of clever ways to get it.
Um, it's not too hard, but you do have to experiment and get good at this and figure out like how much you can get away with and how you can make it still sound cohesive. I think that's something I struggled with when I first started trying to distort just like the higher mid range on bass is like making it sound like it's attached to that low end.
It's not its own separate instrument kind of thing. And, uh, Really just trial and error gets you there. I think.
Benedikt: [00:38:36] Totally.
Malcom: [00:38:37] Yeah,
Benedikt: [00:38:38] totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's part of the challenge here and that's why some people don't like that technique. It's not a thing that you have to do a lot of people these days do it, the bass splitting and all what we've been talking about.
But some people, it doesn't work for some people. Uh, when, for example, we we've mentioned it before, uh, Billy Decker, the country mixer. Oh, we've been talking about the legendary country mix. So we've been [00:39:00] talking about a couple of times now. Uh, he does metal, occasionally Lee. He loves to mix metal actually.
Although his main thing he's known for is his country, but he's, he can mix metal very well, actually. And he's tried the, the splitting bass thing and it just never works for him. Throughout his whole career. He all, he, all he used was one bass track and he just processes it the way that it works for the song.
And he's been trying to do the metal bass splitting technique thing, and it just doesn't work. So he just went back to doing what he knows what he knows best, and it works. So here's this metal mixer still sound great, even though he doesn't do these things. So as always, it comes down to personal preference, but yeah, it's a, it's a pretty well established technique now.
So, and most people will want you to, to record a DI for those. Reasons. And I even go further than that on my bass bus. After I put those signals together, I will mostly, most of the time have a multi-bank compressor and again, compress the low end to make it even more consistent and to bring it together, the lower mid range of the amp [00:40:00] with the low end of the DI track to just kind of lose it together more, it makes it even more consistent.
I also use a band of that. Multi-band compressor to control the pic attack and the cliquiness, because that can go pretty. Crazy sometimes depending on how consistent the player is. So I will have one band controlling area or something. Um, Um, and I do that on the bass bus. And then after I do that, I compress the whole thing maybe, and maybe use a side chain filter to leave the low end alone.
So that can be multiple stages of compression after that, even to bring it together, to bring it back together and make it one signal again. So.
Malcom: [00:40:36] Yes. Yeah. That is really important. Um, just again, going back to making it cohesive and sound like the distortion is attached to that low end. It is the same instrument is submit it back together in a way that kind of communicates properly.
I'm spent a lot of time doing that as well. Um, but yeah, I mean, we should just want to talk a little bit about if you're not splitting, uh, cause I do do that as well. Uh, [00:41:00] it, it, it happens and like pretty much it's just whatever works. Yeah. It's mixing. Right? So you, you, you listened to it and you want a dirtier.
I just make it dirtier. And if it still seems like there's enough, low end, I'm not going to bother going through this whole thing just because it. Works most of the time that, you know, if it sounds right, I'm going to just leave it.
Benedikt: [00:41:21] I've received bass tracks that were recorded so well that I don't do anything to them other than maybe a touch of compression or some filtering or subtly cue.
I mean, if someone wants a classic rock tone and they recorded, let's say a precision bass with the right strings and they have great playing technique and consistency, and they run that through an SVT Ampeg and maybe. Then the 1176 after it, or a distressor or something after it. And then they record that through a great preamp.
That can be the tone and you don't have to do anything about to it. It's just the great classic tone. It works. If it's done, right. It's just, you hit play and it just works. And all you have to do is balancing and maybe a touch [00:42:00] of compression or whatever. But if that's the case, I won't, I won't touch it because what, what would you do?
What would you do to that? You know, like.
Malcom: [00:42:09] Totally. And, and there's some songs where like a DI, I clean DI, the sound of a bass into a DI is the tone that you're looking for. You know, it's just like that really simple, clunky thing. And that works perfectly. So sometimes it's just, I grab that DI, maybe compress it a little bit
Benedikt: [00:42:25] and it's done, especially if you're doing like pop rock or like software things or some, I mean, yeah.
Indie can be, yeah, there are various, like, there are some. Indie pop or indie rock things where, whether this is the case as well, but then there's also the sort of indie rock where it's a, this muffled, almost like old strings sounding sort of distortion or yeah, dirty thing, but some of the indie pop or pop rock or softer rock stuff, uh, where they often play with fingers instead of a pig as well.
A clean DI with a great bass and a [00:43:00] great player is all you need. It can work well, just the touch of compression to control it a bit. And that's it.
Malcom: [00:43:04] Yeah. The point we're making is that, well, we like kind of splitting the bands on a bass and distorting stuff like that. We're very intentional with what we're doing.
It's not just that this is how you do it. It's it's that, it's how we get where we're actually trying to go. You know, it's. We're, we're not just messing with it because that's the way it's, it's not the way. It's just a way of getting somewhere.
Benedikt: [00:43:26] Yeah. And it's always still, it's always good also to listen.
Of course in context with everything else and have the big picture of the vision in mind. Because for example, if you are going for a really boomy, super big super subby kick drum in a slow song, and the kick drum is very long, very, yeah, Subie, very big sounding. There's not much space in the very low end, so you probably don't need a super clean supermassive bass sound.
You want to have a lot of low mid range may be above the kick drum. To go together with a kick drum where we well, and you might not [00:44:00] need the massive, low end, but if you have a very tight, very, um, um, a small sounding kick drum, that's super punchy and tight, but not very, very big. And there is a lot of space in the super low end.
Then you can fill all that in with the bass DI and the low end of that. So it's always a matter of context and you should always keep that in mind. Um, yes. So yeah,
Malcom: [00:44:23] I want to give an honorable mention to middy bass. Cause I feel like it's worth mentioning and mini bass for those not familiar is just basically you program in, uh, using, like, you could just do it with your mouse if you wanted, or a mini controller or whatever works for your workflow.
Um, but the, the amp sound is generated from a plugin. And it's pretty awesome in my opinion, it, uh, I mean, there's definitely some it's different, right? It doesn't really sound like a person, but it really sounds great. Um, and in a mix it can definitely do the job. I've got a. A guy that sends me stuff with mini bass every single [00:45:00] time now.
And it's been working fantastically. Um, there's some stuff I have to do to try and make it sound more human in the mix, but it's totally possible. So if you're not up to the task of recording, a great bass, don't want to buy bass strings very often because we wouldn't be the self-regarding van podcast.
If we didn't tell you that you have to have fresh bass drinks every time. And that actually is expensive so that you might want to consider going with a mini bass, a middy bass because it's. Way more affordable in the long run and it is going to give you a great result.
Benedikt: [00:45:29] Sure. Yeah, totally. Can't agree more.
And yeah, it depends. There are some absolutely fantastic mini bass instruments that give you a realistic sound like the. The punk bass or the chin bass, or what's the other one from submission audio.
Malcom: [00:45:45] If you're
Benedikt: [00:45:45] Eurobass, you're obese. Those three exactly are great for different things. Yeah. So there's things like that, but there's also sometimes the built in whatever base instrument you have in your door or something can even work depending on how real it needs to be.
If it's very simple and it's [00:46:00] just the low end, the foundation, the root notes. Something else can work as well. It's like, yeah, just try it. It's it work surprisingly well, even with,
Malcom: [00:46:09] yeah, definitely. Uh, I actually really like receiving muddy bass because it lets me just kind of audition a bunch of different instruments, you know, like not only am I changing the amp, I am changing the bass, which is really cool to interact.
Just put out a really cool one that I feel like is worth mentioning because it actually like will write bass parts for you. Um, so if you're like a singer songwriter and just don't have the bass bone in you, that you should really check it out. Cause it'll, it could come up with ideas that spark, you know, creativity.
Benedikt: [00:46:39] Totally. Totally, totally. I don't know about that too. Well, I need to put that in show notes. Uh, it's pretty new. Okay. It's a, is it like the virtual drummer in logic that does autumn like that you can
Malcom: [00:46:49] just turn to too much. Okay. And apparently you can, like, you know, you could just go through and play the bass notes with a guitar even, and it would be able to like, figure that out from that.
So it can kind of, you know, [00:47:00] how superior drummer can detect a track. I think it's called tracker. It can detect like what instruments being played on the drum kit. It's that technology applied to a call or to a monophonic source with a soaking track. Like what notes are being played and make up a bass line.
Based on what it's hearing. I'm sure. You know, it's not something you're going to use live, but if you can get you started, um, so. The fellow, I know that twos in it is a songwriter and it's perfect for him. It's such such a cool tool.
Benedikt: [00:47:27] Sweet. I need to look into that and put it in the show notes. Awesome.
Yeah. I mean, one thing that you can also do with mini bass is it gives you as a mixer freedom to enhance certain parts. That's also what I really like about it. So sometimes I just use. All the things we just talked, we've been talking about throughout this episode on the verses and bridges and intro and outro and everything.
But in the chorus, I might add some subtle Mo like a touch, more sub-bass for example, a little more consistency, even more weight. And I just do that by if I have a mini bass or sometimes I'll just program it myself. I'll just add, it can be a [00:48:00] sign. Signal sign, wave, even just the, the root note, um, like the very low end, the lowest Okta.
And I add that to the chorus to add a little more weight and you don't even notice that there is a virtual instrument there, or some sign wave generator, but it just makes the chorus a little bigger. So there's tricks you can do with mini bass that are cool. So yeah. Yeah,
Malcom: [00:48:19] absolutely. Uh, sometimes when we're going down the rabbit hole here, just on the tips and tricks and, uh, and absent or sorry, mini bass is that if, uh, like I had a song where we were tuned to drop D I think, and the tuning and kind of just like the, like, Consistency of that low drop tune string.
That note like the, the low D in this case was just not sounding as good as the threaded notes. It just kind of lacked. And the pitch was all wonky too. So we literally programmed in all of the drop D notes on a middy bass and the rest of it was the actual amp performance. And it just like, I just muted those on the bass amp on the real bass and made it one [00:49:00] instrument and it worked amazingly well.
Benedikt: [00:49:04] I think. Yeah. It's hard to believe that this stuff actually works. I bet if you don't tell people, it's just they'll know. It's just,
Malcom: [00:49:11] yeah, exactly.
Benedikt: [00:49:12] Exactly. Very cool. Very cool. And in case you're wondering why we are talking about like mid range and distortion and character and all that stuff all the time, whether it even is a thing and why that is important because I mean, it's about bass, right?
There is an episode of this podcast. It's episode number 12, and it's called bass tone. It's more than just low end. So I would highly encourage you to listen to that episode because then you'll learn more about why that mid range, that distortion, that drive is even important and worth talking about and why you might even need it or want it in Sean.
Mara's that. You typically wouldn't think of a distorted bass when you think about the genres. So, um, just listen to that, we explain why that is important and why it's not just low end, um, and why that, why new strings are important and why all of that. So [00:50:00] listen to that episode and then on the topic of generally like choosing bass tones and making decisions on what's the right bass tone for the song and making the low end of the song as a whole work.
There's an article on the surf recording band website, and it's called. How to get your low end right before mixing. So it's about the low end of getting it right, but not the mixing techniques, but how to prepare your tracks, how to arrange them, how to capture them. So that mixing will be a breeze and will make the life of your mixing engineers so much easier or yourself if you're mixing.
Um, and if you want to read that. It's the self recording, bent.com/low end. Just go there. And it's a pretty extensive article, uh, where I explain the concepts of why I, um, I choose certain, um, the concepts behind why I choose certain bass tones and how I put the bass and kick together why that relationship even matters.
What else can be going on in the low end? How to get that right. Um, How to make low audible and small speakers, all that stuff is in there. So the self recording [00:51:00] band.com/low end, there's where you find this article. That's the two additional resources that I want to leave you with, um, after this episode.
Malcom: [00:51:08] Great. All right. Well, uh, any, any final thoughts or should we wrap it up?
Benedikt: [00:51:14] I think we've pretty much covered it, right. Um, These are our thoughts on bass. And again, if you're looking for recommendations, that's maybe the last thing to say here on what to buy. We pretty much summed it up in the, uh, during the episode.
But if you already decided and buying an amp and you want a moderate amp, and you're wondering, should I get the, whatever there is out there these days? I would say it doesn't matter as much because all of these amps, what they aim to do is reproduce low end in a clean way. Drive your speakers. They all have different accuse and maybe a compressor or not, or, but the main tone will always come from the instrument, maybe a pedal in front of it.
And then the cab, the way you capture it and the bass amp, unless it's an Ampeg or some character characteristic, tube amp, unless it's that, it's [00:52:00] just a way to amplify that signal. So I don't, I wouldn't worry too much by something quality that has enough power. To give you what you need on stage or to drive your cab or whatever, but don't worry too much.
They all do the same, especially if it's clean transistor amps. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't go crazy here and spend a bunch of time researching.
Malcom: [00:52:17] Yeah, we, we didn't really drive home the importance of the bass you're using. And that is 90% of the picture is what bass you choose to play. Um, for, for the recording, it makes the biggest difference.
That in fresh drinks,
Benedikt: [00:52:32] fresh things. Exactly. Yeah. Um, well we should do, maybe just do another episode on the topic of instruments themselves. I don't know. It'd be good if we could come up with that because it is super important, but for now, um, with the amp versus the DI versus cab. Episode, I think that's it.
One thing, I mean, I just can't stop one thing, we justbdidn't match it. We didn't mention, actually it comes to mind now is the type of microphone we used to capture it. [00:53:00] Right, right. That will be also a topic for another episode, but maybe really quick. Um, I think depends on what you're wanting to get from the amp.
So to make it super quick, a condenser will give you the low end. We'll give you the clarity. We'll give you an accurate representation. Of the cab, a dynamic will be more focused on the mid range, probably depending on which dynamic it is. You'll get more upper mid range or lower mid range, but it's a more gritty, tighter sounding mid range focus thing.
A ribbon can give you a nice, nice low end with a top and roll off. And then there is special things like kick drum, mics that are pre queued that can give you an additional low-end boost maybe, but they can be scooped in the mid range.
Malcom: [00:53:41] Right?
Benedikt: [00:53:42] That's basically.
Malcom: [00:53:43] Yeah. I, I tend to lean towards the condenser mics these days.
That's where I've ended up. It's like, I want it to be accurate of what I'm hearing and try and get close to the tone I just dialed in. So that's the quickest way of getting there for me.
Benedikt: [00:53:57] So basically as a starting point use [00:54:00] whatever vocal mic you have and try putting that in front of the bass cap.
Could be condenser. It could also be something like the SM seven or so, but a condenser, basic bulk, whatever you use for vocals, try that on bass. It will probably work it's spot. And then, yeah.
Malcom: [00:54:12] And man, we can't stop, but if you're really going for it, I love an SM57 on it, but it's like, you know, that's like the supplement mic for me. It's like a condenser, like a U47,
I really dig and then an SM57 snuck in there as well. Line up the capsules, make sure it's all phase goodness and that's pretty tried and true. Yeah.
Benedikt: [00:54:36] The ultimate recommendation for a self-recording band DIY podcast: Go get a U47.
Malcom: [00:54:44] You just heard it, all you need is $10,000 and you can get a good bass tone.
Benedikt: [00:54:48] Yeah, exactly. Malcolm just said he basically wants you to spend $15K on a microphone because that's how you get a good bass tone. But no if you have access to something like that or a [00:55:00] clone or an emulation or whatever, it is a great mic on bass. Absolutely.
Malcom: [00:55:04] Ignore that part of the podcast, just get a good DI. That's all you need.
Benedikt: [00:55:09] Okay. Uh, great. Um, uh, yeah, a place to, to wrap it up here. Uh, thank you for listening. See you next
Malcom: [00:55:16] week. [00:56:00]
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Outback Recordings Podcast - Benedikt's other podcast
Your Band Sucks (at business) - Malcom's other podcast
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